Victoria Kleinsman (00:02.126)
And that’s the five second countdown done, because we’re Hello everybody, welcome to the Julia and Victoria show.

Julia Trehane (00:02.446)
you

Julia Trehane (00:06.362)
Excellent.

Julia Trehane (00:11.418)
We’re renaming it.

Victoria Kleinsman (00:14.306)
Renaming it? Well, we can rename it what we want, but it’s our show, well, it’s not our show. We’re here to help.

Julia Trehane (00:20.846)
for sure.

Victoria Kleinsman (00:22.706)
And if you haven’t already listeners, I’ve listened to Julia’s episode this morning, which was posted recently, posted this week and today is the 28th of August.

Julia Trehane (00:31.236)
this week. So that will be.

Yeah, so it was posted on the 26th.

Victoria Kleinsman (00:39.544)
my god, the most honorably raw You Will Cry episode. So go and watch it and listen. But bring tissues. Bring tissues.

Julia Trehane (00:44.602)
EEEH!

Julia Trehane (00:50.33)
Well if I cried making it’s only fair that you cry listening to it,

Victoria Kleinsman (00:56.404)
Yeah. If someone doesn’t cry then they’re either still in freeze mode and not accessible to their emotions or… Yeah, I’m just gonna say that. Alright, well, can I go first?

Julia Trehane (01:07.674)
Okay. Absolutely.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:12.686)
Okay, so this is a lovely, quick one actually. And I’m not saying it’s lovely because it’s quick, I mean it’s such a nice, interesting, quick question. So Georgie, Georgia says, when you start working with someone, can you tell if they will reach full recovery or if they’re going to end up in quasi-recovery instead?

Julia Trehane (01:33.37)
That’s a really great question and yes and no actually. So some people are very much in freeze mode to begin with and very much in the fear and you just know that

Victoria Kleinsman (01:41.422)
So we will.

Julia Trehane (01:57.838)
Gentle steps, lots of reassurance, lots and lots of love. And when they come out of the freeze mode, then you can see really clearly how open they are and what an incredible transformation they’re gonna get. But some people you literally know from the get-go that they are just ready to soar.

Victoria Kleinsman (02:14.499)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (02:23.33)
Yeah, I agree. would say yes and no when I would say, and I know you feel very strongly with what I’m about to share, you and I both fully believe without doubt that every single person can fully recover. So it’s not a question of whether we’re like, maybe this person can only reach quasi recovery, is it? It’s like you said.

Julia Trehane (02:36.004)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (02:44.718)
It’s a journey and I don’t want to be, I am going to be tough, lovey here, but there’s also more layers to it. When someone gives 100%, they’ll get 100 % out of their transformation. And when someone’s in freeze mode, like you say, they’re 100 % might not look like these big strides in opposition to the eating disorder, but it takes perhaps a few months to get to the stage where they then can make big strides against eating.

Julia Trehane (03:14.126)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (03:14.672)
so yeah everyone can fully recover but I don’t I try not to well I actually don’t it’s not I don’t try I don’t think they’re gonna be halfway recovered like I’m like

Julia Trehane (03:25.176)
No, I’ve never thought that. No, I’ve never thought that. You will go as far as you’re open to going. And the only barrier is the stories you tell yourself about your capabilities.

Victoria Kleinsman (03:34.882)
Yep.

Victoria Kleinsman (03:43.362)
Yes. And the stories you tell yourself about fear and about not being able to handle it or cope with it. And you can.

Julia Trehane (03:51.364)
Yeah.

That was a really good question. I liked it.

Victoria Kleinsman (03:55.508)
Yeah, really interesting question, right?

Julia Trehane (03:58.111)
Okay so this one is about brain chemistry.

Victoria Kleinsman (04:04.878)
Ooh, hit me with it.

Julia Trehane (04:06.394)
Whenever I try to increase my intake or rest more, it feels like a switch flips in my brain. Suddenly I’m overwhelmed with suicidal thoughts, deep depression and my appetite completely shuts down. It’s so confusing because I can be motivated for recovery, but just a few days into pushing myself, this wave of awful feelings comes in. I’m not at the stage of eating nothing, but I’m still underweight and I don’t feel like myself.

Why does this happen and is there a way to move through it? Is something biochemically wrong with me and does this get better with time?

Victoria Kleinsman (04:44.098)
There’s nothing biochemically wrong with her. Nothing. And the brains are very strong. I don’t want to say fearful. I remember when I was in anorexia, I was so afraid of my own brain because I know you will resonate with this. knew it. Well, I didn’t know I had a brain and my mind was different to my brain. I didn’t know that then. I know that now. But there was something.

in me that felt completely like a victim to my brain, that I had no choice. So when people would say, well, just eat more, it’s like I have no choice though. I can’t eat more. So the reason I’m sharing this is because the brain can be so powerful and so controlling and like there’s no way out, but…

or should I say and, the brain is a certain way, like this person’s brain is wired a certain way, and when we do something that goes against how the brain is wired, the brain literally thinks you’re gonna die. Because, this is a funny thing to say, but in hindsight the brain is a bit stupid sometimes. Because any change…

Julia Trehane (05:55.769)
you

Victoria Kleinsman (05:59.872)
it thinks it’s gonna die because if you did the same as you did yesterday and you’re still alive, the brain’s like, we’ll just do that again because we’re surviving. we’ll do it again because we’re surviving. It cares first and foremost about your survival. So when you go against what you’ve always done…

the brain will hit you with everything it can to make you do what you’ve always done because you’re still alive, because it’s a very big threat to the brain. So it does get better, but there’s no way around those feelings when they hit you. That’s where coaching comes in. You need to be with someone supporting you, in my opinion, who has been through it, who understands how it feels, who’s not gonna just say, just choose a nice affirmation and just keep repeating it to yourself and it’s all gonna be fine, because it’s not.

It’s learning how to be in those feelings and still choose recovery anyway, even though you’re actually not getting any reward from recovery.

Julia Trehane (06:55.77)
Yeah, I completely agree. mean, our brain’s primary function is to keep us alive. It doesn’t actually really care how we feel. It’s just doing its job of keeping us alive, running the program of life. And like it or not, restricting is a numbing action. And so those everyday feelings and

Victoria Kleinsman (07:06.861)
No.

Victoria Kleinsman (07:12.29)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (07:18.626)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Trehane (07:24.782)
bigger feelings that you don’t feel when you’re restricting. Don’t go anywhere. They’re just in you and they’re waiting. And when you start eating, you start setting the feelings free and it can hit like a tidal wave.

And so you’re absolutely right in that having somebody to help you through that is incredibly helpful. And also knowing that you can’t out think a feeling because the feeling is in your body, your thoughts are in your head. So finding the feeling in your body and giving it space and allowing it to be there.

Victoria Kleinsman (08:01.912)
Yes.

Julia Trehane (08:09.714)
I personally found is one of the most helpful things to get me through because as you always used to say to me, a feeling just wants to be felt and then it can move on.

Victoria Kleinsman (08:20.078)
Yeah, and with this lady as well, there’s an identity crisis going on when she does what she has, when she does the opposite to what she has been doing and the brain sends all these signals to tell her not to do that because it’s dangerous. There’s also like an identity part to this I feel of like, well, who am I if I’m not doing what I’ve always done? So you’ve got all the feelings.

and who am I going to be so in a deeper sense and that’s obviously where coaching comes in. If you might hear my baby in the background I might have to feed her in a moment so I’ll let you take over Julia but that’s where coaching comes in and I want to keep pointing it back to coaching but it’s all the deeper work isn’t it always.

Julia Trehane (09:07.618)
Yeah. So do you want to just quickly give me the next question?

Victoria Kleinsman (09:15.286)
Yes, please, thank you. And then I’ll put myself on mute and then I’ll keep myself on camera. It’s all good. Okay, so Jenny says, could you speak about getting lost in food decisions? I’m terrified of it not being perfect and having regrets. So I only choose foods I know I love. How do I let this go? I’m gonna put myself on mute, but I’m still going to be listening. Where is mute?

Julia Trehane (09:18.787)
Okay.

Julia Trehane (09:43.234)
Okay, Jenny, that was a great question. Thank you. yeah, everything, Victoria, you’ve literally disappeared. You’re not on mute. You’re not on, okay. So yeah, the perfection, they wanting to do recovery perfectly, wanting to have the food perfect. This is coming from the fact that food has been basically put on a massive pedestal.

and it’s become like the center of your world. Your thoughts are all about food. Everything is revolving around food, even though you have probably been avoiding it. So the thought of not having it perfect is terrifying, but life is really messy and having perfect food isn’t really achievable. I used to toss a coin

to find out what I really wanted, which is something Victoria showed me to do. And say I didn’t know whether I wanted a cheese sandwich or a chicken sandwich. I would toss a coin and heads would be chicken sandwich. And if it came out at heads and I felt like, yay, inside, then I knew that was what I wanted. But if it was like, then I knew it was what I wanted. It wasn’t what I didn’t want, pulling over my words. So.

You’re allowed to eat food that’s messy. You’re allowed to eat food that’s not perfect. And the more you practise doing that and practise just having different foods, the less the need to be perfect is there.

Victoria Kleinsman (11:29.474)
That was good timing. And I wasn’t fully concentrating, but I don’t think I have much to add. You may have already asked this. Why does it have to be perfect? Did you speak to that? Like, what’s the reason for?

Julia Trehane (11:43.394)
I did speak, I didn’t ask why, no.

Victoria Kleinsman (11:47.51)
or perhaps something to journal on, Jeni, like, what does perfectionism around food mean? Why is it not okay to have food just random and messy and all those things? Okay, let’s see how we, sorry everybody, let’s see how we get on. Do you have another question, Julia?

Julia Trehane (11:58.329)
Yeah.

Julia Trehane (12:04.858)
I do and this is a really good one and I don’t think I’ve ever been asked anything like this before. It’s great. In recovery, I often feel the weight of how much my family has been through alongside me. In the past, my eating disorder consumed everything and I couldn’t see the pain it was causing them. On top of that, I had moments where I put myself first in really destructive ways, even attempting suicide.

My question is how do you rebuild your family’s trust and respect after putting them through so much? How do you hold your head high again and feel like they can be proud of you?

Victoria Kleinsman (12:46.01)
There’s so much emotion in that question. And I also understand because the amount of times you say to loved ones like, it’s going to be different, please support me. Maybe financially supporting you, emotionally supporting you, physically supporting you, and then it doesn’t work out and then you feel like you’re a big failure again and then you do it again and the same thing happens. And I describe this as a sense of like learned helplessness because we were talking about the brain earlier and how strong the brain is. When the brain has evidence,

Julia Trehane (12:48.154)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (13:15.824)
that recovery doesn’t work because you’ve tried it 50 times.

And then obviously your brain has this evidence and it’s always giving it to you, but your family have this evidence and they’re saying it or not. Part of them will be like, why is it going to be different this time? And they will, you will feel, you will feel that. And there’s so much shame and grief and guilt around that. So I just want to say that I can imagine how hard that feels. How to get your family back on board. it, is please remind me, Julie, is the question, she in?

Julia Trehane (13:26.819)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (13:50.552)
cover like what’s different now to when she first did tried before multiple times perhaps

Julia Trehane (13:58.378)
I think she’s towards the end of recovery. I think she’s doing really, really well.

Victoria Kleinsman (14:02.112)
Okay, do you know this person? if she’s with you then of course she’s gonna fully recover. Okay, this helps me answer the question then. So have you shared with your family and friends the progress you have very clearly made that I know from working with Julia it will be different and more than you’ve ever made before? So that’s what I would share first, like do they actually know how far you’ve come?

Julia Trehane (14:04.538)
I do, yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (14:29.268)
And then of course they might have their doubts on will she slip back, will it be forever and things like this. I would say share with them your vulnerability, share with them how you feel, share with them why you feel it’s different this time and then just show them. Just show them, be compassionate to yourself, take care of your little inner child.

Julia Trehane (14:47.214)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (14:53.152)
and just show them that it is different this time. And ask for what you need from them as well. think that’s worth saying. If you need anything from them, supporting physically, emotionally, you still get to ask for your needs even if you’ve had it before.

Julia Trehane (15:07.192)
Yeah, I agree. And the end of the question is how do you hold your head high again and feel like they can be proud of you? You start by being proud of you. You be proud of you because you are doing what I consider to be pretty much the hardest journey in the world. The most difficult thing I’ve ever done in my life. And the most worthwhile. And we were speaking before we hit record.

Victoria Kleinsman (15:29.998)
same.

Julia Trehane (15:36.666)
I am so proud of myself for going through this journey and you can be incredibly proud of yourself for going through this journey and you can hold your head high because you deserve to and they will see that and then they will start to feel proud and they will feel relieved and just so happy for you.

Victoria Kleinsman (15:58.307)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (16:02.584)
They will be proud. You haven’t got to worry about how to make them proud. Just be you. Keep going on this journey and they will be proud, especially like Julie says, and you will be proud of yourself. Nothing to worry about there, I really don’t think.

Julia Trehane (16:05.646)
Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (16:18.4)
So let me get my questions up again. And sorry about the whole Koa thing. And I’ll say this on air, me and Julie have discussed many times before, like, I’m not blaming my husband here at all, but Koa, my daughter, is doing this thing where she will not drink with Vauta, my husband. And we’re doing our best, but it’s still not working. So he just brings her to me, ideally not.

Julia Trehane (16:42.319)
You

Victoria Kleinsman (16:42.466)
But what can I do? It is what it is. And she has drank a bit and off she’s gone again. So sorry, not sorry, but also a bit sorry for you, Julia, and people listening just for the interruption and my emotional interruption.

Julia Trehane (16:54.394)
It’s it’s just showing that life is not perfect right. It’s messy, things happen, babies cry, husbands don’t manage. Life is messy. Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (17:00.586)
It’s not, absolutely not.

Victoria Kleinsman (17:08.178)
Yeah. What can we say? It’s fine. Okay. So that question was answered. Lovely. So the next one is by Julie and she says, should I plan my challenges in advance and then do them no matter what, even if I don’t feel like it?

Julia Trehane (17:32.74)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (17:33.422)
I didn’t read the questions before I got them up and I’m just like, yes.

Julia Trehane (17:38.522)
100 million percent yes, yes, yes, and yes again, because you’re not going to feel like doing them.

Victoria Kleinsman (17:43.87)
No, and I guess, is it a good idea to plan? I’m just kind of making more of the question. Is it a good idea to plan in advance?

Julia Trehane (17:52.282)
So yes, and also be spontaneous. So if you’ve got a list of fear foods, a list of challenges, and you know you need to face them all, absolutely plan some. But if an opportunity comes up that you can spend the afternoon in the cinema resting and not moving, take it. So plan and.

Victoria Kleinsman (17:58.024)
Mm. I agree.

Julia Trehane (18:21.22)
take opportunities when they arise.

Victoria Kleinsman (18:23.47)
Yeah, because I guess even though it’s positive planning for recovery, I guess if you’re always meticulously planning every detail, even recovery, it’s also an energy of that planning structure control without the spontaneity. my God, I’m nailing words today. Are you proud of me? I’m proud of me.

Julia Trehane (18:45.134)
I’m very proud of you.

Victoria Kleinsman (18:47.01)
Thank you. So yeah, both and the answer is yes. And I feel emotional. Like, why the hell do I feel emotional again now? It’s your bloody podcast I listened to this morning. my God. I’ll let you go with the next one.

Julia Trehane (18:55.386)
Sorry.

Julia Trehane (19:00.002)
Okay.

I’ve been in recovery for about two months now and one of the hardest parts has been the edema. I know you’ve spoken about this before, but mine just isn’t going away yet and I’m struggling with it. Can you share how long it lasted for you and how you coped? I know it’s different for everyone, but it would help to hear your experience.

Victoria Kleinsman (19:21.838)
I’m gonna answer in like 30 seconds because you have the most experience with this. I had it very not like you experienced it. I experienced it a lot in my hands and my ankles and my face and for me it probably lasted three months and it’s shit and you just have to deal with it but I’ll let you speak to that because that was a really really big part of your recovery.

Julia Trehane (19:45.176)
Yes, so the edema I had turned me into the stay puff marshmallow man from Ghostbusters. It was everywhere. I was a giant water balloon. And for me, it did last for about 18 months. Some days it was easier, some days it flared up. The flaring up definitely coincided when I was not resting.

Victoria Kleinsman (19:50.094)
you

Victoria Kleinsman (20:13.07)
Yeah.

Julia Trehane (20:15.438)
But just because I had it for 18 months doesn’t mean you will have it for 18 months. The edema is there because your body is really, really clever and it’s telling you to sit the fuck down and rest. And it’s making it really, really difficult for you to move. Actually painful. And in a way, it’s a gift because it makes it easy to not move because it’s so painful to move.

And it helps you with the fear of weight gain because when you blow up overnight, you literally have to get over that fear fast. Because it’s happened, even though it’s water. When that water goes, you’ve kind of got over that intense fear of the scale changing and not that you need to go on the scales at all. So coping wise, the more you rest,

Victoria Kleinsman (20:54.382)
Mmm.

E.

Julia Trehane (21:14.756)
The more you eat, the quicker it will go. The more you fight it, try to manage it, take water pills, try and work it off by going for walks and having magnesium baths and all the things, the longer it’s gonna last.

Victoria Kleinsman (21:32.674)
just gonna fight back. think, did I describe it to you when you were sharing about it in recovery that, you know, like if you’re on the motorway and you have a flat tire and you pull over, is that a good example? Let’s say you’ve got a little tent in your car in the boot when you’re changing your tire. This is a short example, but what I this as when someone’s, if you’re not,

Julia Trehane (21:53.186)
Where are we going with this? I mean, I’m going to sit back at story time.

Victoria Kleinsman (22:01.678)
watching the video I’m for some reason look like I’m tapping some kind of metal together with what I’m doing. When someone’s working on, oh my god this is a horrendous literary where are you going with this? I’ve got this image in my mind of a little man working on something in a little blown up tent that’s protecting him from the world so he can get on with his little job. So I probably didn’t share this because you would have been like what the fuck are you talking about?

Julia Trehane (22:26.37)
You sound like you’re describing the doozers from Fraggle Rock at the moment. That’s because you’re too young.

Victoria Kleinsman (22:29.944)
I don’t know what that is. okay, I’ll take that. But what I’m saying is it feels like, if you’re still listening, God bless you, like a little inflatable tent has been put up by your body while the little men inside, obviously not literally, are repairing. But it needs the protective mechanism of this little tent so no one can bother him as it’s repairing your body and things like that. That was the worst.

Julia Trehane (22:49.562)
I

Victoria Kleinsman (22:59.944)
explanation. I’m glad I’m not doing a solo podcast and you can reply to this in your time.

Julia Trehane (23:00.762)
Epic.

Victoria Kleinsman (23:09.326)
It’s a good one, I’ve a lot of shame work, whatever.

Julia Trehane (23:13.15)
I get what you mean. So essentially it’s like your body has covered you in a liquid bubble wrap to protect you whilst it heals.

Victoria Kleinsman (23:23.434)
Yes, yes, that’s a better way of describing it. Because it needs the space to be able to do all the repairs that you can’t see, you can’t feel and you don’t know what’s going on.

Julia Trehane (23:30.788)
But your way was so cute.

Julia Trehane (23:40.078)
Yeah, yep, it’s happening for a reason. Let it happen, don’t fight it. And know that it doesn’t mean anything about you. Apart from the fact your body’s really fucking clever.

Victoria Kleinsman (23:50.733)
Night.

Victoria Kleinsman (23:54.798)
and you’re in recovery doing the work. So that’s like a huge positive that it’s happening. If you look at it from that perspective, you’re a badass with courage. Well, okay. So Clem says, I’m five months into recovery and my weight is still creeping up. My mind blames it on the quote unhealthy foods I’ve added, desserts, chips, granola. Most of what I eat is nourishing.

Julia Trehane (24:00.182)
Yeah. Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (24:23.8)
but the orthorexic voice is loud. Sometimes I skip dessert to avoid the shame spiral. advice?

Julia Trehane (24:32.482)
Okay, so you can’t heal from an eating disorder while still taking the actions of someone with an eating disorder. So when you’re skipping the dessert, when you’re having the so-called healthy food and not having the food that you actually really want to have, then you are acting like someone with an eating disorder and so then you still have an eating disorder.

Victoria Kleinsman (24:43.906)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (25:01.698)
and it’s not gonna change until you change. And I would say, or I would invite Jen to reframe what healthy means to her and what nourishing means to her because for me, I speak from personal experience.

when I was, I always refer back to my and your time, Julie, because it just means so much to me and it will come again at some point. But when I was in your living room and I was going into your, I went into your fridge in the shed and your husband had a fit because I took all bits of chocolate from all different types of chocolate bars. With my whole of chocolate. Yeah.

Julia Trehane (25:33.306)
That really annoyed them. She took a little bit out of each bar rather than just taking a bar.

Victoria Kleinsman (25:41.582)
I wanted all the different flavours. So when I did that and I was sat with you and I wasn’t hungry because you’d fed me well, I was nourished emotionally because I spent time with you, my inner child had, inner children had a blast.

But that experience of just, I don’t think you had any, sometimes you had some, sometimes you didn’t, you just had what you wanted and didn’t want, you didn’t want to. But for me, that’s nourishing because it’s a social connection, the environment’s nourishing, and the chocolate was part of that. So what does nourishing even mean? Does it only mean clean, whole foods? I invite you to reframe what that means and then start acting as if nourishing means more than just physical food and then everything

I think will then start to shift around the labeling she’s giving to healthy and unhealthy foods.

Julia Trehane (26:31.354)
Absolutely, yes, because healthy foods, so-called healthy foods, healthy nourishing foods, differ at different times in our lives. So you wouldn’t give your baby a load of salad and cottage cheese when she was born, because that’s not healthy or nourishing to her.

In recovery, your body tells you what it needs. It tells you by making you think, I fancy that, that looks good. Or you just get things in your head of, I don’t know, cakes, pizzas, burgers, whatever. And the reason you’re getting that, the reason you’re thinking about those foods isn’t that you’re suddenly unhealthy. It is because at that time,

your body is wanting fats, it’s wanting sugars, it’s wanting simple carbohydrates, because that is what it needs to do the healing work, to have the energy to feel safe. Then at another point in your recovery, you might suddenly get where you are wanting lots of protein-based foods. And that is because that is what your body needs at that time. So it’s not the…

Victoria Kleinsman (27:51.459)
Yeah.

Julia Trehane (27:55.96)
These so-called foods are unhealthy, although they have been demonised by society absolutely and I completely get where you’re coming from.

Your body is telling you what you need. It doesn’t matter if somebody else needs something different.

Victoria Kleinsman (28:10.286)
Trust.

Victoria Kleinsman (28:14.926)
Yeah, it’s leaning into that body trust, isn’t it? And also, I would argue that what you’ve just described, eating exactly what you feel like eating is the most healthiest and nourishing thing for this person in this moment. And like you say, we ebb and flow. Like a pure example, it was not yesterday, the day before, my husband’s in charge of cooking. This isn’t a Slate My Husband podcast. I love him to bits.

Julia Trehane (28:17.935)
Yeah.

Julia Trehane (28:32.643)
Yes.

Julia Trehane (28:43.386)
You

Victoria Kleinsman (28:44.524)
and he’d had a busy day and he didn’t want to cook.

So we all did takeaway and obviously I’m gonna eat, food is just neutral to me but honestly I would rather have much rather had some home cooked food and if people are saying why didn’t I cook I could have also done that but I also am primarily the caregiver of my nine month old and as you’ve seen it’s quite challenging sometimes so I didn’t have the capacity either. So I had the takeaway you know and it was okay but I much would have preferred to have a home cooked dinner and that had nothing to do with restriction.

or healthy or unhealthy, was just my body would like something different. So that’s just proof that when you just tune into yourself and just trust, like it changes over time and it’s not that it’s a good thing that I didn’t want to take away, it’s just interesting to see how it shifts.

Julia Trehane (29:36.506)
Yeah, yeah, I completely agree with you actually. When I was in the eating disorder, the idea of a takeaway, obviously I didn’t have them because I would never have allowed myself, but the idea of a takeaway was exciting, almost illicit in a way, and it was like put on a pedestal. And now I’m like,

Victoria Kleinsman (29:41.218)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (30:01.613)
Mm.

Julia Trehane (30:05.55)
We’ve had them, we’ve had takeaways whenever, you know, they’re part of life. I don’t love them because actually, I’m blowing my own trumpet here, I can cook better.

Victoria Kleinsman (30:17.378)
You can. You can.

Julia Trehane (30:22.426)
Yeah, they’re just… Food is food and you just get to choose what you want without any guilt, without any shame, without any conditions or rules. It’s just food.

Victoria Kleinsman (30:37.134)
It’s just food and I think I forgot to speak to the weight game part because she said… Wait, where is it? Oh yeah, her weight’s still creeping up and the mind is blaming the reason for her weight creeping up because she’s eating quote unquote unhealthy food. Your body’s gonna do what it’s gonna do. That also goes back to trust. If you get out of the way, it will do what it needs to do quicker.

Julia Trehane (30:58.734)
And if you listen to it, it will do what it needs to do. Because if your weight is creeping up and you’re eating the foods you want to eat because that’s what your body, the signals your body is sending to you, then your weight needs to be creeping up. And it will stop when your body doesn’t need it anymore.

Victoria Kleinsman (31:15.63)
Yeah. So let go, get out the way and practise trust. Indeed to that one. Do you have any more?

Julia Trehane (31:20.621)
Absolutely.

Julia Trehane (31:27.18)
I do. I’ve just got an ice cube land in my mouth as well, so I’m going to be crunching.

Victoria Kleinsman (31:30.19)
Cool. Pay for it.

Julia Trehane (31:34.006)
Yeah, I quite like crunching on an ice cube. Little story here whilst that. We, I spilt the ice cube tray in the freezer and there was just loads of ice everywhere. So we tipped it out into the drain outside and it’s a little drain. So there was just this pile of ice cubes and I was in the kitchen. I could hit all this crunch, crunch, crunch. And I was like, what the hell is that? And it was, it was little Daisy out there just chomping on ice cubes.

Victoria Kleinsman (31:57.208)
Daisy.

Victoria Kleinsman (32:02.873)
He might have joined her actually, he used to have ice cubes when he was a puppy, I’m looking at him now, but he’s a snow dog so maybe that’s a good idea, maybe he’ll also want ice cubes. Little Daisy.

Julia Trehane (32:13.018)
She was quite happy out there, munching for ages till they melted. Okay. I’ve been eating three meals a day consistently for over a week now and I’m feeling so bloated and full all the time. My clothes are tighter and even though I try not to weigh myself, I slipped and saw that I’m very close to the overweight BMI range. I’m short and I’ve always struggled with the idea of being in a bigger body.

It makes me doubt if recovery guidelines really apply to me. If I’m gaining weight, doesn’t that mean I’m already eating too much? Should I really keep eating whenever I have food thoughts, even though I rarely feel physical hunger cues? How do I know if I’m doing this right?

Victoria Kleinsman (32:58.67)
Oh, that’s actually, there’s a lot in that question because what I’m hearing her say is, well, first of all, congratulations on acknowledging her for doing the work, even though all of this is going on because it sounds like she’s not hungry and she’s still eating, which is key. So without knowing exactly where she’s at on her journey, I would want to know how long she’s been in this recovery journey for, which will then depend on whether I’m saying she can lean into more intuitive eating or not. So I’m not sure exactly where she is.

Julia Trehane (33:27.738)
I know a little bit about her and I know she’s not ready for intuitive eating.

Victoria Kleinsman (33:35.106)
Okay, so there you go. it’s that if she was able to, and she can, it would just take a bit of work, to drop the whole BMI thing. If that didn’t exist, and it only exists because white men made it up years ago for some insurance thing, then that would give her a bit more freedom. She can have all the freedom she wants, but she needs to take this step by step. So let’s say there’s no BMI.

let’s say she notices physically she looks bigger because she’s shorter, she’s perhaps gained a lot of weight, going back to what we’ve just been saying, that’s what her body needs to do because it’s doing it. So deeper work is needed here around what it means if she doesn’t like the look of her body. Perhaps deeper work is needed around what she’s making it mean if she was in a bigger body in comparison to others. Are people going to judge her? What does that mean? Will she be loved and accepted in a bigger body? And there’s also the tangible

aspect of if you’re in a bigger body and things like leg chaffing you and I both have that that sucks but you just manage it with love and compassion and yeah do we wish it was different yeah because it’s literally physically sore

Julia Trehane (34:33.754)
Yes it does.

Victoria Kleinsman (34:44.174)
but it is what it is. So it’s managing yourself, living in this world in a bigger body. It’s delving deep into perhaps a fear of judgement from others, what that means. It’s letting go of the BMI altogether and absolutely letting go of the scale. You never need to weigh yourself ever again. The only time you would ever have to weigh yourself is if a doctor needed to give you medication, so it needs to know how much the dose to give you, but then you still don’t have to know the number.

Julia Trehane (35:11.411)
Yeah, or a dexa scan, but you can be weighed by and you don’t have to see it.

Victoria Kleinsman (35:16.81)
Exactly, so you don’t have to know the number ever again. And then with regards to should you still keep eating even if you’re not hungry, Julia, actually, you in recovery, you didn’t have hunger cues for ages.

Julia Trehane (35:28.96)
No, I didn’t. So when she’s saying she’s not hungry, it’s the physical feeling of hunger. She has very definitely got the food thoughts.

Victoria Kleinsman (35:33.751)
Yep.

Victoria Kleinsman (35:40.866)
okay, well that’s easier then because you just follow your food. So see emotional and mental hunger as hunger because it is. So just don’t allow yourself to say I’m not hungry, I’m not hungry because you are if you’re thinking about food. So follow the mental and emotional hunger. If you weren’t mentally and emotionally hungry…

Julia Trehane (35:59.215)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (36:05.484)
then we might be having a different conversation. If you’re afraid of food, you still need to be eating it, because the only way to get over a fear is to face it.

Julia Trehane (36:13.314)
Absolutely, because part of the question was should I really keep eating whenever I have food thoughts.

Victoria Kleinsman (36:19.07)
yes, yes, yes, Yeah.

Julia Trehane (36:21.196)
Yeah, even when you don’t have physical hunger cues.

Victoria Kleinsman (36:25.068)
Yes, definitely. And then work on the hardest part, which is the weight gain. So keep going, look into everything that we’ve shared, know, look into what it means if you were to get bigger, let go of the scale, let go of BMI, trust that your body knows what it’s doing, because what’s the alternative to live with an eating disorder for the rest of your life?

Julia Trehane (36:26.98)
bit

Julia Trehane (36:47.47)
Yeah. No, thank you. No.

Victoria Kleinsman (36:50.286)
No, what’s that? What’s that? Okay, so I’m gonna read you the question and then… Oh, she fell asleep. Okay, so I’m gonna read you the question, I’m muted a minute, because Vauta’s brought her into me. Emily says, I’ve struggled with anorexia for 36 years now, she’s now 47.

I’ve restored weight and I’m now working on self-worth beyond appearance. Good. My mum constantly makes thin obsessed comments. I’ve asked her to stop, but she doesn’t. It no longer sets me back, but I feel like part of my soul dies each time I visit. I don’t want to cut ties. How can I navigate this?

Julia Trehane (37:35.802)
That’s a really good question. And I feel your pain so much when you say part of your soul dies when she says it.

It’s really difficult because we can’t control other people. We can’t choose what they say or do and you’ve already asked her not to.

you can put in further boundaries and say that when you say stuff like that I’m going to leave but if you don’t want to do that my suggestion would be to respond with I’m so glad I don’t have to buy into that bullshit anymore every time she says something like that just say yeah I’m so glad I don’t have to buy into that bullshit anymore

Victoria Kleinsman (38:28.59)
Yeah speaking it out loud.

Julia Trehane (38:32.718)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (38:34.274)
and then also I understand as well and feel a part of her soul dies because in a way what’s happening is little her

is having a massive emotional reaction to what her mum’s saying, her mum isn’t saying it in words, but little her is seeing her mum basically saying, I’m not accepting you, you’re wrong in some way, you’re not enough or you’re too much. So that’s when she described a part of her soul dies, it’s actually her inner child is heartbreaking because of that threat of connection and love from her mother.

Julia Trehane (38:48.004)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (39:15.842)
So do a lot of inner child work. She’s obviously in my group. So, and I think she’s quite new in the group. So she’ll be doing inner child work anyway with me on the calls and in the modules, but really focus on little you and prep yourself before you go to see your mom. Maybe do an extra meditation or just take time to just connect with little you. And then eventually the comments your mom makes.

it won’t affect you. I’m not saying it won’t affect you ever because she’s your mum. But from personal experience with my mum…

Like my mom doesn’t say negative comments but she’ll say something like, like when after a given birth, your tummy’s so flat already, which she thought was a compliment. But obviously that could stir a lot up within me, but it just like rolls off me. It just like washes off me. Like it’s like I’m a polished stone and it just like washes off me because I’ve done that deep inner work for her opinion to not matter anymore because I’ve grieved the heartbreak.

and there’s a part of me that still wants her validation, but it’s okay, because I get to parent that part of me now. So I guess what I’m saying in a long-winded way is it won’t always be like this.

if you keep doing that inner work and self soothing and inner child work, as well as like Julie said, set a boundary, request and a boundary are two different things. A boundary has a consequence, a request is simply a request and if she doesn’t listen, then she doesn’t listen. What consequences are you gonna put in? Then she might learn and then change perhaps.

Julia Trehane (40:49.946)
Absolutely and also her comments are about her own fears and her own conditioning and her own baggage. So you can have compassion for yourself for how they feel to you but compassion for her for not being free from.

Victoria Kleinsman (41:13.964)
Yeah, almost even if you have to go in the route of feeling a bit sorry for her initially, because if she didn’t have that within her own psyche and emotional world, she wouldn’t be projecting it onto you. And massive acknowledgement for all the work it sounds like you’ve done and are doing because that’s amazing.

Julia Trehane (41:18.009)
Yeah.

Julia Trehane (41:25.88)
Yeah.

Julia Trehane (41:34.934)
Okie dokie, right, I didn’t do these in order which is kind of tricky. Right, okay. Question about blood work.

Victoria Kleinsman (41:45.838)
Okay.

Julia Trehane (41:46.466)
I’ve had anorexia for decades and for the past year I’ve mostly lived off the same three to five foods each day. Sometimes I break the rules at special occasions but overall there’s very little variety. Yet every time I have my bloods checked they come back fine. It confuses me. How can things look so balanced when my diet is so restricted? It makes me feel like maybe this isn’t as dangerous as I know it should be and part of me uses it as justification to keep going.

you explain why this happens?

Victoria Kleinsman (42:18.39)
Yeah, I mean, I’m not a doctor, all those things, but just because your blood looks okay in a random test doesn’t mean that you’re okay. It doesn’t mean you’re physically nourished. It doesn’t mean you get in all the macro micronutrients. Again, I don’t know exactly what a blood in tests completely entails and all the little intricate details to it. And I can see that part of her is perhaps wishing it was bad. So it was like permission.

Julia Trehane (42:43.822)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (42:46.902)
to then, okay, it’s really bad, this is why, because of your blood, so now you need to do something about it. So it’s still that waiting for someone to say, to acknowledge how bad it is in order to then move forward. Yeah, that permission, and I get it, I totally get it. So I know it’s really hard, but write down, actually, in black and white.

Julia Trehane (43:00.152)
It’s like permission, isn’t it?

Victoria Kleinsman (43:11.214)
how the eating disorder is negatively impacting your life. She’s already said she has like three to five foods she allows herself to eat. Sometimes she break the rules. mean, do you want to live like that? And how does she feel physically? Like I assume she’s got no energy or if she’s got that anorexia energy, which is like adrenaline energy, which isn’t true. Fight, flight, freeze energy like constantly.

Julia Trehane (43:33.978)
It’s stress energy, isn’t it?

Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (43:39.926)
panic mode energy, like physically how is it affecting you, emotionally how is it affecting you, spiritually if that means something to you how is it affecting you and then you don’t need any proof physically to start to change this. All of those reasons that you’re going to write down and I guarantee there’ll be a lot without even knowing it is enough. If you had one reason written down which will have way more than one that’s also enough of a reason.

to recover and get support.

Julia Trehane (44:10.286)
Yeah. Yeah. And your body is incredibly, incredibly clever. And your body is primary, primary function is survival, homeostasis, balance, essentially. So it will work incredibly hard to balance everything that is essential for your survival.

Victoria Kleinsman (44:17.206)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (44:34.871)
Yes.

Julia Trehane (44:35.992)
Your blood work does not tell you how much of your heart muscle has started to waste away because your body is borrowing energy from it. It doesn’t tell you how much of your brain has shrunk down because your body is borrowing energy from it. It doesn’t tell you how much your bones have been crumbling away. It doesn’t tell you any of that stuff. And in fact, blood tests only work on specific

markers. So unless you have had blood work done for every single marker blood tests are for, they’re only a screenshot. A bit like an Instagram picture of somebody’s life, right? They’re just a tiny picture and there has been research done into this exact phenomenon. I said the phenomenon right? I’m really proud of that.

Victoria Kleinsman (45:22.222)
you

Victoria Kleinsman (45:32.62)
I know, I’m not even going attempt that.

Julia Trehane (45:37.262)
So there has been research done into this and doctors don’t really understand why this, the body can balance the blood work so well and then it goes so wild in early recovery.

But it is well known and it doesn’t mean you’re okay. And you’ll know you’re not okay because you wouldn’t even be asking this question if you were.

Victoria Kleinsman (46:05.71)
And I want to add to that, in the chaos, to say that Julia’s right, the body is so adaptable. Like I remember Carla, you might know Carla if you’ve been following me for, well, Julia obviously knows Carla, who I also supported in anorexia recovery. Throughout her entire anorexia journey, she always had a period. And she was not okay. Physically, emotionally, spiritually, she wasn’t okay, she was very, very sick.

you know, she had the anorexia, the exercise addiction, the whole thing, but her period kept coming. So for example, some people see their period coming back as a mark of like, now I’m recovered, everything’s fine. Now I need to stop eating more. Why do I still have extreme hunger? Because the bodies are different, but the bodies are so adaptable. Just because your bloods are okay, it doesn’t mean I’m gonna end the question with what I started with. It doesn’t mean you’re okay and you deserve to get help.

Julia Trehane (47:02.052)
that way.

Victoria Kleinsman (47:03.15)
let’s go, Valta, dear. Okay, let’s go. I’ve got quite a few from Helena, so hopefully, see what time we have, if we can get through them all. So question one, how many questions do you have left, by the way?

Julia Trehane (47:17.658)
We’re done.

Victoria Kleinsman (47:19.018)
Okay great, so let’s see if we can. She’s got five questions and I’ve shortened them so it’s easier to read out. Question one, is this a common pattern? I eat more, gain weight, panic, yes, then restrict to see if I lose again, just to check my metabolism isn’t broken. Then I start again. I’m angry at myself for repeating this cycle. Can you relate and how do you break it?

Julia Trehane (47:47.682)
Okay, so yes, I can relate and I think millions of people can relate and it is a fear-based action. It is you not trusting your body. So ask yourself, can you trust your body? Do you trust your body to tell you when you need the toilet? Do you trust your heart to be beating in your chest?

Do you trust when you decide to stand up that you’re gonna stand up, that your body’s gonna do what you’re saying?

And if the answer to all this is yes, then why can you not trust that your body knows how to metabolize your food?

Victoria Kleinsman (48:39.234)
Yes, and to gain the weight it needs and wants to gain. And your metabolism can’t be broken. And if you want to go down the quote unquote broken route,

which it can’t be, keep restricting. Because your metabolism fires up and completely comes back online when you keep eating more consistently. So she’s restricting again to check her metabolism isn’t broken. Well, that’s the complete opposite of even though you can’t break it, but quite and quite repairing the metabolism, right?

Julia Trehane (49:15.234)
Yeah, absolutely. And yes, of course you’re going to gain weight when you’re eating because your body has been in a perceived famine for a very long time. And as soon as food comes in, it’s gonna hold onto it, especially because you then start restricting again. you can trust your body, but at the moment your body doesn’t believe she can trust you.

Victoria Kleinsman (49:37.186)
yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (49:44.91)
And so her question is, how do you break it? As a lovely Tabitha Farrar says, act like a person who doesn’t have an eating disorder. Or I would actually change that a little bit. Act like a person who is in full recovery, like in the recovery, because a recovered person like Julia and I will eat differently to someone in recovery. So act like you are in recovery from anorexia. And that’s how you shift it.

Julia Trehane (50:12.334)
Yeah, treat your body like you would treat a child.

Victoria Kleinsman (50:17.1)
Yes.

Julia Trehane (50:19.158)
a child that is healing. You wouldn’t then suddenly deny them nourishment.

Victoria Kleinsman (50:21.294)
with

Victoria Kleinsman (50:26.606)
and that feeds into the compassion. She’s angry at herself repeating this. Anger won’t help, compassion will.

Her second question is, in recovery what helps you more? Focusing on the excitement of future life or accepting fear as part of the process and pushing through? How much does fear, sorry, how much does turning fear into excitement help?

Julia Trehane (50:55.908)
Does it have to be either or? Can it be both and? So you can turn fear into excitement without having to go into the future you want. That didn’t make sense at all. So without imagining the future you want, yes, you can be excited for that future, but fear can be turned into excitement simply by walking through it.

Victoria Kleinsman (50:58.094)
I agree.

Julia Trehane (51:26.552)
because you can say, I’m really, really, really scared of eating that croissant. And it feels, the fear is so strong, it feels like the world is gonna end when I eat that croissant. And you can walk into that fear, you can eat the croissant, and then you can go, nothing bad happened. And I’m badass and I’m proud of myself. And the croissant is no more.

Victoria Kleinsman (51:26.627)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (51:53.154)
Yeah, and yeah, you’ll have feelings of guilt and shame most likely because the brain will send those to you and you did it anyway and you didn’t bust into flames. And so you can then focus on how you want to feel. And like you say, it’s always both and, I did have like a goal in mind. I didn’t have a very specific goal. I knew I wanted freedom.

Julia Trehane (52:01.112)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (52:16.086)
and my mantra, she knows this, she’s used it to me before, whatever it fucking takes. And that means facing fear over and over again because I want freedom and everyone’s promising me freedom if I keep doing these things so I’m just gonna keep doing them. So it’s both and.

Julia Trehane (52:33.304)
Yeah, and what can I do today that Future Me is going to thank me

Victoria Kleinsman (52:38.722)
Yes, great question. And then repeat. Repeat.

Julia Trehane (52:42.264)
Yeah. Is future me going to be pleased that I don’t eat anything until seven o’clock in the evening? No, if she’s not.

Victoria Kleinsman (52:50.794)
Nope, nope, she’s gonna be like, get up, eat a chocolate bar and then go and have breakfast. So you nail the day at the beginning, right. Three left, let’s see if we can make it without us hovering outside. So I’m gonna choose, well, let’s see how we do.

Question three, how can we make recovery as easy or as simple as possible? If you could redo recovery knowing the outcome, would you approach it differently? Can belief in recovery or borrowing someone else’s belief make the journey easier?

Julia Trehane (53:22.444)
Okay, have you ever met anyone that regretted recovery?

Okay, no, neither have I. And I wouldn’t actually change how I approached recovery because I went, I’m gonna get fat and I’ll deal with that later. And I want this over as quickly as possible. So what can I eat that has the most calories ever? And how much of it can I eat? And I went in basically because I wanted to

almost get the land speed record for recovery.

Victoria Kleinsman (54:01.55)
I would say you’re not far off.

Julia Trehane (54:04.826)
I didn’t want it. I’m very much a jump in the deep end person. And if I’m going to do something and it’s going to be shit and it’s going to be unpleasant and it’s going to be horrible, I want it over and done with. So that’s what I did and that’s what I would do again. And I personally believe that’s the easiest way to recover.

Victoria Kleinsman (54:18.006)
Yeah, same.

Victoria Kleinsman (54:30.474)
I do because if you’re going to jump in the cold pool anyway, eventually, why not just jump the fuck in instead of just keep putting a toe in and a foot in and then go back out and if you want to jump in anyway, just jump in.

Julia Trehane (54:40.301)
Yes.

Yeah. You want to recover, so recover.

Victoria Kleinsman (54:49.4)
To say what she spoke to about beliefs, borrowing someone else’s belief, does it make it easier? Yeah. I would look at women my size and bigger on Instagram every day on purpose because it was showing me that this person in a bigger body, I know it’s on Instagram so you don’t know, but they looked happy and free and zero fucks were given and they were eating what they wanted. So they obviously believed, or at least were acting like they believed, that they could be in a bigger body and be happy and live a joyful, loving life with a partner.

So I borrowed someone’s belief because you can’t believe something until you have evidence of it. So you can’t believe you can recover until you’ve recovered. You create the belief by doing evident, evidential things to create the belief. So yeah, borrow my beliefs and Julia’s beliefs and others who have recovered too, and then start acting that will act accordingly.

Julia Trehane (55:29.898)
Absolutely.

Julia Trehane (55:44.718)
Yeah, I believed in your belief that I could do it. I didn’t believe I could do it, but I believed in your belief that I could do it.

Victoria Kleinsman (55:55.084)
and belief’s very powerful. Because I believed without a shadow of a doubt you could recover, even when you didn’t believe it yourself. So belief is very powerful. Okay, we’re at the half past, what’s half to doing? I’m gonna choose one more out of the two. Which one?

Julia Trehane (56:12.11)
Thanks for the second one. I have no idea what they are, by the way. OK.

Victoria Kleinsman (56:16.064)
Okay, so I’ll go for the second one then. I have all the traits of a highly sensitive person, HSP. I’ve read that many with eating disorders are HSPs. Do you agree? How does this affect recovery approaches?

Julia Trehane (56:31.992)
Yes, I agree. Yes, I think a huge amount of people are highly sensitive people who have eating disorders.

Julia Trehane (56:46.35)
But you’ve navigated your entire life as a highly sensitive person. You know what, how far you can push yourself, you know what you can do. It doesn’t mean you’re not a strong person. It doesn’t mean that you’re like a snowflake that has to be gently carried. It doesn’t mean anything like that. You are still an incredibly strong and badass woman that has the power to do what it takes to fully recover.

end.

I’m a highly sensitive person. I have like insane senses. Like I have to, I’m the idiot that wears sunglasses in the supermarket because the light’s too bright. Smells are really strong, loud noises. It’s like, I feel like they’re assaulting my ears. But rather than…

Victoria Kleinsman (57:32.13)
far behind you.

Julia Trehane (57:44.83)
Letting that stop me live my life the way I want to, I adapt so that I can live my life the way I want to. Like wearing sunglasses in the supermarket, even though people give me raised eyebrows. Or shopping online.

Victoria Kleinsman (57:53.802)
Thank you.

Victoria Kleinsman (57:57.528)
Yeah, you’re using, yeah, shop online. You’re using your HSP traits to serve you and you’re adapting your life to support you. So I would suggest, Helena, you write down a list of characteristics that are indicative, is that the right word to use? Indicative to a HSPC. And, totally proud of myself right now.

Julia Trehane (58:06.361)
Yes.

Yeah.

Julia Trehane (58:21.274)
Bye!

Victoria Kleinsman (58:26.806)
And then look at that list and be like, right, how can I pivot these or look at them or use them in a different way, but still using who you are to support recovery? Just because. Yeah, it’s a very gift. Use it. Amen to that. I think it’s a good time to end. dear, she’s literally so tired and I can see her sat there.

Julia Trehane (58:37.21)
Yeah, it’s not a negative, it’s a gift, use it.

Julia Trehane (58:47.534)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (58:53.398)
I’m going to go and grab her now. But listeners, thank you for being with us with the chaoticness and me not making any sense, but you’re used to that if you follow me anyway.

Julia Trehane (59:03.512)
Yeah, as always, it was a highly professional episode. We are both so formal and serious.

Victoria Kleinsman (59:06.667)
You

Victoria Kleinsman (59:10.606)
And we’re both happy and joyful and free.

Julia Trehane (59:13.516)
Yeah, yeah, so thank you everyone for listening and we’ll be back together next month.

Victoria Kleinsman (59:17.998)
Thank

We will, sending you all so much love and any questions you have for the podcast, I have an Instagram story highlight. If you want your question to be answered guaranteed, join my group. Little plug there, shameless plug. And Julie, you get them emailed to you or DM’d or either.

Julia Trehane (59:33.764)
Bye.

Julia Trehane (59:38.244)
DM on Instagram, join my group. There’s weekly Q &A’s in there at the moment, so you can have questions answered and they’ll be on here. So come find us. We’re here, we’re ready and we’re waiting.

Victoria Kleinsman (59:51.918)
professional, joyful, chaotic episodes as always. So much love to you all, see you next time.

Julia Trehane (01:00:00.474)
Yeah. Bye!