Victoria Kleinsman (00:01.646)
Well, Sam Miller, what an honour. Thank you for coming on the podcast.

sam miller (00:06.701)
Hello, thank you for asking me.

Victoria Kleinsman (00:08.758)
Well, first of all, big questions. Who are you? What do you do? And why do you do what you do?

sam miller (00:16.102)
my goodness, well, who am I? I am Sam. I am a teacher who used to work in mental health a lot, has recovered myself from very serious mind-body conditions, had a lot of trauma, also worked for a stint in eating disorders in the NHS, just as an aside, which is kind of interesting obviously for your cohort here. So I have a pretty good understanding of why we do the things we do that we wish we didn’t do.

in an effort to try and feel better. And that’s what I try and communicate to people and support people with all sorts of mind-body presentations because what the mind cannot tolerate will be expressed through the body. Usually it’s repressed survival charge, repressed emotional energy, life force that’s now coming back through. But if we’ve had trauma, etc., it’s very difficult to be okay with that, even at a subconscious level. So what we do

is we start to have the issues that we all have, which is why people are here listening. And it’s important to say that, you know, it doesn’t matter whether you’ve got chronic fatigue syndrome, chronic migraines, disordered eating, back pain, whatever, it’s all the same thing, because it’s never about the thing it’s about, apparently, on the surface. So I’m just trying to teach people how to surrender back to the natural order that

will take care of this all for them. If they understand the framework then they can trust what seems so counterintuitive.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:52.226)
Yes. well, let’s dive straight in. Well, before actually we did that. One of my lovely clients sent me your interview with Josh on the dysfunctional podcast. Yeah. And I listened and I was like, my goodness, I would love to have Sam come to check on my podcast. So here you are.

sam miller (02:00.964)
yes,

sam miller (02:05.578)
Hahaha

Victoria Kleinsman (02:08.876)
have notes, so if anyone sees me looking to the side, that’s what I’m doing. So, one of the key things I took away from your conversation with Josh, and that’s what I want to dive into first, is you talk about symptoms being the healing process, not the problem, which obviously is the opposite of what most people are saying. Can you tell us more about that and also what common symptoms you see that are manifested that something deep is going on?

sam miller (02:17.698)
Mmm.

sam miller (02:35.49)
Well, what, if you can’t, let me just sort of start with a basic 101 on your life force. You know, you’re an energetic system. Your emotions are real things, okay? They literally bring the outside world to you and tell you what is for you and what isn’t for you, depending on the true self, which you are. And they’re to come in and move the whole time, flowing, flowing, flowing, this, that, and the other. It’s your life force, okay? It directs you to opportunity and moves you away from the threat. Now, if for some reason it’s not,

Victoria Kleinsman (02:44.162)
Yes.

sam miller (03:04.638)
okay to be an emotional person to express them to completion because we have insecure attachment, we are shamed or disowned or devalued in some way or taught it’s not okay to basically allow this to flow through us, they become repressed and they become repressed and held and stuck in the body, held in the nervous system, held literally in the body and people can feel this and this is called the shadow.

It’s a deep, unconscious part of us which just holds this waiting for time when it is safe to do it. It’s a bit like somebody coming in a war situation who is not able to feel fear or pain because they’ve been injured. They wait till they get back behind the lines and then it’s safe to discharge the survival energy. So you see it in animals, they will automatically shake and release. And then that charge comes back to the beginning.

where it’s meant to complete this loop and we shake it out and homeostasis is restored. And this is how we’re meant to be flowing the whole time. Now, we can hold this charge for so long, but your subconscious, and this is a mind-body thing, your subconscious, your psyche, and your body has this sort of holding, which is called your nervous, it’s held in the nervous system, can only do it for so long. And eventually, the nervous system

is so full it dysregulates so we don’t damage the body and it has to so we can survive because all our available energy is being used to repress the energy that’s not safe to feel aka those emotions that fear that grief that rage and it gets squashed down and it’s held and suddenly it’s like no we need the life force back it’s draining us we’re getting ill we’re getting you know very very tired but the whole point is is the energy

Victoria Kleinsman (04:32.088)
Right.

sam miller (04:57.013)
has to outlet and because the ego, that part of us who thinks we are, doesn’t do those emotions, it has to come through another way. It’s just a life force. So what it does is it explodes through the body, either at sort of the most basic level, know, kind of anxiety, you know, or physical chronic symptoms. So it could be chronic migraines, gastrointestinal issues, IBS, it could be chronic fatigue syndrome.

It could be any number of anything that relates to the nervous system because the nervous system is holding the charge and now it needs to release it. So actually by the time you get symptoms, this is the natural order of the body trying to heal you. So your symptoms are the healing process of a solution to a problem you didn’t know you actually had. And it’s worth saying here that most of us to have kept that charge in there,

Victoria Kleinsman (05:48.684)
Mmm.

sam miller (05:54.068)
will have become versions of ourselves that are acceptable, that have got our needs met to a certain point that aren’t really us. And they’re a way of surviving in a world that said it wasn’t okay to be your authentic self. So your symptoms are actually the effort of this natural system, which is always like everything in nature, trying to bring you back to balance. But if you don’t understand it, that anxiety

those things coming back will feel frightening. They’ll feel frightening to that part of you that had to put them in there. So then we resist them. And then we are in this push me pull you situation with what’s coming into consciousness to try and sort us and what we think we shouldn’t be feeling. Hence we develop coping mechanisms. And the analogy I often use with the symptoms thing, it’s a bit like a cold. When you start to develop the symptoms of the cold, that’s the resolution.

Victoria Kleinsman (06:53.484)
Yes.

sam miller (06:53.662)
because the snotty nose is the streaming out all the stuff you don’t want. The fever is there as the solution to the invading infection, if you like, and that’s it. But we think that we focus on symptoms and we particularly focus on nervous system dysregulation. My opinion is that everyone’s got this wrong. People talk about dysregulation as the problem. No, no. Dysregulation is another symptom.

Disregulation happens because we repress our emotions and emotions are the key regulator of the nervous system. So we don’t re-regulate the nervous system. We feel what’s caused the dysregulation to naturally discharge in the same way with a cold. You don’t, if you’ve got a cold, just endlessly take things to suppress your nose, discharging what it needs to. You let it do it in a careful, titrated way.

Victoria Kleinsman (07:54.38)
Yes, wow and, wow and questions. I work with a lot of women and this was my past self as well. So I know that I’ve done on my journey and it’s a journey that never ends as you never healed right fully in my opinion.

sam miller (07:56.479)
Yeah.

sam miller (08:04.518)
No.

sam miller (08:10.911)
Well you’ll never heal because you’re never broken, that’s the whole point. If you think you should in life never feel pain, never feel what we call a negative emotion, no such thing exists, there is no good or bad, only thinking makes it so, as Shakespeare said. It’s normal to have grief if someone’s died or you’ve lost something. It’s normal to feel sad, it’s normal to feel fear if you’re in danger, but we live in a culture that has become so adverse to…

Victoria Kleinsman (08:13.678)
yes!

Victoria Kleinsman (08:19.075)
Mm.

sam miller (08:39.487)
uncomfortable and unpleasant things. We think they’re dangerous, hence we repress them. And because we’ve dysregulated in any way, the alarm is looking on saying, because as the energy comes back, those incomplete fear cycles, etc., those incomplete grief cycles have to, and I’ll actually, talk about that in a minute, about the anatomy of emotion. The mind is trying to find the meaning for why you’re feeling this. And so it says that the feeling itself is dangerous. It’s dangerous to be sad.

We must cheer up. It’s dangerous to feel anger. We must calm it down. We must be happy, happy, happy, fun, fun, fun, et cetera. Your emotions are your life force. So just to pop that in there. Can’t even remember you asked me now.

Victoria Kleinsman (09:21.102)
Oh, it. No, love it, love it, love it. Well, lot of women I work with are so disconnected from their body, that live in their heads because it felt safer, because as you were so wisely saying, back when they were children and babies, they did not feel safe, they didn’t know how to feel the emotions, so they’re suppressing them. How does one invite safety into the body to feel the emotion, so that we can a completed cycle?

sam miller (09:39.368)
Yes.

sam miller (09:45.983)
Yes, because the first thing we have to do is we have to become re-embodied and everyone will have gone into their left brain which is the thinking, analysing, trying to manage everything with what we call tertiary emotions which are thoughts about emotions. There’s not even secondary emotions. The primary emotions are the key to life. They are the things that move and flow. Secondary emotions are inhibitory. They block. And then if we miss those, because those are the things like, you know, the shame,

the frustration, the anxiety, then it goes straight up into head. So the majority of your clients will just be the whole time. Need to re-engage with the right brain, which is the intuitive thinking brain. It’s the part that we should be attuned to with our caregivers as children and the majority, I’m presuming, excuse me, of people you work with will have poor attachment, insecure attachment, won’t have felt safe their whole lives.

Victoria Kleinsman (10:22.333)
yeah.

sam miller (10:43.932)
And of course, if you don’t feel safe, you’re going to run away. And if you can’t run away, the best place is to run away into your head. we are just bodies have become this thing. We just carry our heads around on. So the first thing we need to do is we need to come back to the body. coming back to the body, think, you know, basic things I start clients with are like yoga nidras. I mean, you’re probably very familiar with those. Just thinking, I do have a body. I have a foot, I have a hand. What does it feel like?

Just to really hang out in your body for a bit, which will be very uncomfortable for most of us who’ve lived in our heads, because we’re still looking for danger. And if there’s something that doesn’t feel blissful, it will feel like we want to run away from it and fix it. There is no fixing. Nature knows how to fix it. So the first thing I would say for people, if they really are disconnected, if they’ve got repeated thoughts,

Give me the kind of thoughts, repetitious thoughts that your clients are presenting with.

Victoria Kleinsman (11:46.414)
I can’t eat that, it’ll make me gain weight. If I gain weight, I’ll be unloved and die alone. I can’t control anything, therefore I’m not safe. Everyone will judge me. I’ll be alone.

sam miller (11:55.07)
Great. there’s fear, there’s fear of abandonment, there’s rejection. So it’s It’s fear, fear. So one of the things you can do is first of all, you can try and just find that in your body. But one of the ways to trick the ego out the way is say, agree with the thoughts. I’m gonna get, I’m unloved, I’m gonna be rejected, I’m gonna die, I’m gonna be fat, I’m gonna be unacceptable, I’m going to, whatever the thing might be, I might lose control.

Victoria Kleinsman (12:01.432)
Fear, fear, fear, fear.

sam miller (12:22.386)
and then drop straight down into your body as if you don’t have a head and just say to your body, show me, as if this was true and there it is, there it is. Love it. This is your life force coming back. This is the solution you’ve been looking for all along. Okay. So then you would go to it. You can put your hand on it and just say, I’m listening. This is the voice of you that wasn’t allowed to express her fear when she was a child.

Victoria Kleinsman (12:29.026)
Mmm.

sam miller (12:52.413)
Okay, so I’m never going to abandon you again. I am here for you. Show me how you feel. It’s a part of you that wasn’t able to express safely in the presence of an empathetic witness that would say, it’s okay. It’s okay to be frightened. Okay. And since then we’ve been trying to solve fear the whole time. All right. So, you know, if I was to say to, you know, maybe at the end we should do a little exercise. We can walk people through.

Victoria Kleinsman (13:20.683)
yes, please.

sam miller (13:21.243)
that might be a helpful giveaway and I’ll send you some videos that you can share with your folk that might be useful, some exercises. The other thing we can do, another way of giving permission is a lot of people have a misunderstanding. So, Kitten, what are you doing? Sorry, just a kitten intervention. Stop that. my God. Who’s just tinkled on the carpet?

Victoria Kleinsman (13:29.55)
Thank you. Thank you.

Victoria Kleinsman (13:42.516)
has a new kitten by the way and we were just chatting before we pressed recorded the kitten no

sam miller (13:50.948)
deal with that later. So now the dogs going over to inspect it. so what was I saying? I’ve been interrupted.

Victoria Kleinsman (14:00.502)
You were saying about giving away some resources that would be helpful. Yeah. And then you.

sam miller (14:03.951)
Yes, so we need what I was going to say as well, breath. I don’t know if people are obsessed with breath.

Victoria Kleinsman (14:11.724)
Well, interestingly enough, I tried to be in my recovery, but it made everything worse, and I had this breathing thing, and I was trying to force it. It just was making it worse.

sam miller (14:17.902)
Of course.

sam miller (14:22.117)
Well, and we know why don’t we? Because breath work is wonderful if you’re regulated, if you don’t have lots of trauma. You don’t want to do breath work if your nervous system is saturated with health survival energy. Why? Because you’re already in survival. Breath work is going to trigger that and activate it and is going to basically release a lot of energy so you feel better a bit afterwards, but it’s got nowhere to go. It can’t, it will overwhelm you, so it’ll go round again.

So people are stuck in these cycles of trying to manage a bit like, it’s just another coping mechanism like food. So people are now becoming addicted to biohacks. And this is really, really interesting because it’s a bit like orthorexia, which is the classic, appears to be a healthy thing, biohack to start with, okay? But this is breath work, cold plunges, exercise, all of that. Anything that’s trying to solve a feeling you have. So breath is very important and I want to talk about how we can work with breath as well for people.

Victoria Kleinsman (15:06.178)
Yeah.

sam miller (15:21.03)
We don’t ever breathe through. We don’t try and overcome. Everything about our life has been about bullying and pushing through and not accepting, okay? And I get rid of that and I breathe it away. You know, it’s a very sort of, you see the Manosphere doing this a lot now. There’s a lot of kind of, they’re still getting to not get to their vulnerable parts because they can go into a tent, sweat it out, do lots of breathing and hit themselves with whatever it is. And still that little part of them is untouched and safe.

and he just wants to be held and for a lot of people. So what I get my clients to do is if I was to say to you now, just expand the awareness of your body, go to your body now, why don’t you just shut your eyes and do this and ask your body to speak to you. Just tell it what’s it showing you right now as an energy in your body.

Victoria Kleinsman (15:50.211)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (16:04.408)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (16:15.36)
It’s telling me there’s bit of tightness in my chest around where my chest would expand to let breath in.

sam miller (16:21.923)
Right, now what I want you to do is I want you to just do a tiny breath to the point where you meet the resistance of that object of tightness. It might be a sit, it will be very high up in your chest. Have you found that resistance point? Now what I want you to do is just stay and breathe with that, to that point. That’s the threshold where the mind meets the body. And this is a part of you that wants to be felt.

Victoria Kleinsman (16:34.935)
Yep.

Yeah.

sam miller (16:50.863)
and wants to release. This is an energetic charge, okay? Now if you keep breathing, might find… Now do not choose to breathe. Just say to the breath, breathe me. And you might find you do tiny breaths, you might do really short ones. The rhythm might change just like a piece of music. Follow it as if it was a little creature finding its way. And stay with it. Stay with it. And just let it breathe. You might even want to hold your breath at some point.

And I want you to give that shape, that tension in your chest, permission to do whatever it wants to say, I am never leaving you again. I am here. I am not going to abandon me, abandon you. Show me what you couldn’t feel. I will never leave you. What is it you’re wanting to express now?

Victoria Kleinsman (17:42.168)
feel like I to burst into tears.

sam miller (17:44.142)
Great, just allow that, what’s happening energetically on your body now.

Victoria Kleinsman (17:49.356)
like tingling and like the place where it was tied is just naturally, it’s not gone but it’s naturally softened because it feels seen.

sam miller (17:58.798)
Yes, because the energy is now being distributed and the tingling, you’ll be getting tingling in your, maybe in your extremities. What’s happening with your breath?

Victoria Kleinsman (18:08.782)
It’s naturally deeper than it was. My body’s less, because I had a habit of bracing all the time. Bracing, bracing, bracing.

sam miller (18:11.951)
Yes.

sam miller (18:18.126)
Well, we’ll talk about that because there’s nothing wrong with that. So you just completed an art and an emotional arc of energy. Okay. And you know, you’ve done that because one, the breath deepens, you might get yawning. You might feel sort of the tingling behind your eyes. If it’s, if it’s an old emotion, it’s just old stuff.

Victoria Kleinsman (18:36.172)
Yeah, it feels old. It feels like it’s from the past a long, long time ago.

sam miller (18:42.936)
And sometimes when we do it, you might literally get the flash of you as a child.

Victoria Kleinsman (18:47.214)
Yeah, I did. kind of knew I found myself at the stables when I was about seven years old standing there. that was just so interesting.

sam miller (18:57.837)
Yes, because that was the point where something was interrupted. So we think about emotion. Emotion was telling you something. Let’s think about seven year old Victoria. She’s there at the stables. Something is naturally happening beyond her, underneath her awareness, telling her and it’s bringing something towards her. It’s formulating in the body first, okay? It’s turning into raw affect, raw energy. It’s moving up.

moving up it will go through her chest, will go through her throat, this is why people often feel it here, go to your face and this is why people have this this tight jaw etc often get stuck and then it goes up to the limbic system to the midbrain where it gets made into an emotion okay I am doing fear I am and then once this is all before all in that the split second this is before you even have a thought by the way thoughts come after emotions not the other way around and then it gets taken over to the meaning-making part of the brain and says

Victoria Kleinsman (19:40.767)
Thank

sam miller (19:55.651)
We need to do something with this. So you would jump out the way, you would do something, create a boundary, whatever you’ve done. The message has been read. Here, the energy then loops back round and continues. And that, that you just allowed it to finish its arc. You could feel it then going back into the body. The energy is released. This is why you have tingling in your body. You sometimes feel warmth, sometimes feel cold.

Victoria Kleinsman (19:57.059)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (20:11.383)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (20:22.059)
just cozy, like a release is the best word to use.

sam miller (20:24.716)
Yes, it is a release, it’s a proper release because you’ve basically gone into parasympathetic mode naturally. You don’t have to regulate your nervous system. You have to allow it. knows exactly what to do. Now, it would be nice if we can just do one of those and it’s done. Everything for people. Of course, it can’t because our nervous system, you’d explode. You would literally explode. This is why a lot of people, again, classic bypass, are thinking, great.

Victoria Kleinsman (20:31.704)
Hmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (20:46.499)
Yes.

sam miller (20:54.529)
It’s just repressed emotion. I’ll go on a thing and I’ll do a load of breath work and I’ll release emotions. No, because that was quite pleasant, wasn’t it? That was fine. If you’ve got the mother load of emotion, the fact is that part of you, the ego part, has to accept that it’s safe. And if it still feels unsafe, it will just send it back again. Your nervous system, red,

Victoria Kleinsman (21:05.73)
Yes. Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (21:17.23)
Mm.

sam miller (21:24.153)
capacity, you know the capacity to what it can release, what the ego part of you can tolerate and it gives you these small titrated doses. So this is why we just go into the body and allow throughout the day and do these exercises and what happens afterwards is you might feel a little bit relaxed and sleepy. Why? Because there’s actually a neurophysiological, neurobiological thing going on because that information now it’s being read

in Victoria’s brain has to be included in the operating system. So that’s rewiring. And this is why people often when they experience this feel offline. Why? Because like when a computer is installing, you can’t use the system because it’s re-patterning and re-figuring the operating version of consciousness, including the new bit of information that brought in. I just felt an emotion and it was safe. okay. We’ll include that in the running model.

Victoria Kleinsman (22:24.078)
Mmm.

sam miller (22:25.016)
So you’ll feel a bit offline. Sometimes when people with clients I work with who are really quite big, because they’re good at it, they’ll have big releases, you’ll feel completely knackered afterwards. But it’s the righteous type of tiredness where you’re not in your head, you’re just feeling like, snoozy.

Victoria Kleinsman (22:42.924)
Yeah, it feels safe, not forced.

sam miller (22:46.817)
Yes. And that’s the thing because you have engaged your parasympathetic nervous system in the most efficient way. People talk about vagal toning again, completely getting it wrong. You just toned your vagus nerve naturally because what you did is you showed it safety. It’s the social engagement system. How did you show it safety? You breathed up to it and you stayed with it.

Victoria Kleinsman (22:57.314)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (23:09.838)
Yeah, I didn’t try and force push past the limit it was giving.

sam miller (23:13.08)
I didn’t do this, I wasn’t doing this, I’m safe, I’m safe, all the time trying to get rid of something. That’s not gonna trick. That is not gonna trick the system that’s saying, if it’s so safe, why is she trying to get rid of it? And the only way out is through. You can’t push back the energy that’s held in the nervous system. It has to come out. And often it feels very uncomfortable because it’s symptoms, but we have to make this space to do it.

Victoria Kleinsman (23:27.992)
Yes, yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (23:36.6)
Mm-hmm.

sam miller (23:42.711)
You can push it back. know, mean, literally there are people on Instagram. It’s so amazing how avoidant we are of discomfort. know, millions of followers who are there just soothing, soothing, soothing. Well, it’s like taking the thing to dry up your cold. You’ll feel soothed, but you’ve pushed the charge back and it will cut and later these people are going to explode.

Victoria Kleinsman (23:50.147)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (24:07.054)
Yeah, because it’s not going to go away. We think, well, I used to think because I was originally diagnosed with anorexia when I was like 11. So it started off with anorexia. And then it was helpful because it just suppressed everything and everything was just buried. Great. is problem solved. yeah, of course it wasn’t. And my question to you is, Sam, do you think we can ever get to a place where we’ve had the full cycle on most of

sam miller (24:23.498)
found the solution.

Victoria Kleinsman (24:36.768)
all of our suppressed emotions.

sam miller (24:39.912)
Yes, of course, you know, but it depends how good you are and it depends how suppressed you are. But you don’t need, everyone’s got a shadow. You don’t need, I mean, you’d be Buddha himself if you just could clear everything out. You you have to get to a point where you’ve restored a balance and an equilibrium so that that charge, you know, if we’ve got this sort of bucket of capacity, is low enough that it can hold life’s events, stressors, this, that and the other. Because at the moment,

Victoria Kleinsman (25:03.074)
Yeah.

sam miller (25:09.365)
It’s full to bursting with everything we’ve never felt said, thought done, instinctually been able to experience. And so we’re just on the top. And so everyone is trying to manage this millimeter at the top of their, know, allostatic load, shadow, whatever you want to call it with these coping mechanisms. And we should talk more about coping mechanisms. So people don’t feel so bad about them because coping mechanisms are a brilliant adaptation, but we don’t need them anymore. But

Victoria Kleinsman (25:36.622)
Mm-hmm.

sam miller (25:38.504)
The whole point is we want to empty this load, this bucket, the shadow, and it’s naturally doing it for you. This is the incredible thing. And you know, I work pretty much from a Jungian model, but it’s naturally happening for you. And often when people get to a certain age, because they’re now actually safe enough, even though the thing they’re trying to process is fear, to now become themselves, to stop being that performance that got them to this point in their life.

Victoria Kleinsman (26:02.37)
Mmm.

sam miller (26:08.416)
They can take off the costume. That costume was important. It’s like being in outer space. You need that space costume. But when you come back to Earth, stop wearing it. And we’re still wearing it.

Victoria Kleinsman (26:11.096)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (26:22.382)
Do you think that happens naturally for everybody or do you think some people will forever wear the costume because they never feel safe enough to sort of start questioning why they’re still wearing it?

sam miller (26:33.905)
I think some people wear the costume because they are not at that stage in their development to do that. actually I would say, and this sounds probably quite crazy, but the people who start to get sick are the people who are the ones in most evolution. These are the ones who are evolving and ready to go to the next stage because they’re ready to become themselves, part of the individuation process. Some people can carry on being the costume.

Victoria Kleinsman (27:03.682)
Yeah.

sam miller (27:03.862)
forever. Like Donald Trump, like narcissists for example, you know, they’ll never get sick because the defences are so great that it can’t sort of break through. But it’s when the self, the true nature of who you are that organises, you know, both conscious and unconscious parts of you says, Nana, now you’re ready. You can take this. And this is when illness comes on.

Victoria Kleinsman (27:27.512)
Yeah. Yes, that’s so interesting because so many people that I work with in anorexia, they start anorexia recovery and they’ve not been sick their entire restrictive journey. They’ve got all this energy, which is of course anxiety and fear based energy. It’s not like grounded energy. And then they start recovery, they nourish themselves, they rest more and they’re sick all the time. And they’re like, what is this happening? Your body’s just processing what it needs to process.

sam miller (27:54.677)
If everything that’s been frozen, think of it like this, you know, I often say this to people, any defence, defence, you know, it doesn’t have to be literal, can be metaphorical, you know, your emotions are defensive, they got frozen in time. Every time you wanted to say no and had to say yes, every time you overrode yourself, think of it like a punch you tried to throw, okay, that’s like an arc of energy that does that, okay? And it’s like that’s been held frozen in your body.

Victoria Kleinsman (28:06.808)
Yeah.

sam miller (28:24.316)
Okay, as you start to allow basically yourself to feel again and do this work, this unthaws. You’ve got to feel it to completion so we feel much worse before we feel better. You know, this is the cold streaming to full capacity before, you know, it’s a healing crisis in that respect. So you will feel worse and you have to feel everything. But your nervous system, part of…

Victoria Kleinsman (28:41.111)
Yes.

sam miller (28:50.964)
you know, it being so full and having to dysregulate so we don’t actually damage the body. I mean, it’s just brilliant. There is nothing wrong. There’s nothing wrong. This is why do not take medications if you can help it because that just suppresses on suppression. You know, it’s been in such high alert, you know, when we have, say you cut yourself or your damage, we have certain mechanisms, know, heart rate variability, blood flow, all of these things, blood moves around the system.

Victoria Kleinsman (29:04.993)
Yeah, I’m with.

sam miller (29:20.117)
digestion goes offline, your immune system becomes hyperactive, inflammation increases, why in case you’re going to be damaged it’s there. All of this is meant for acute stressors. Perfect. Which means, you know, then it comes out because you complete the survival response, you die or you escape or whatever, you express an emotion. But for people who are so repressed, they are in this survival state in a prolonged way. So everything is up here.

everything and as we start to come down off the ceiling you’re going to get everything you’re going to get every cold you’re going to feel everything it’s normal what’s full must be empty and if you think about it you’ve been living life over here and it has to swing all the way back to here to come back to the middle so counterintuitive if you understand the science and i’m not just talking about you know the science of the nervous system

but the psyche, and this is what everyone’s missing because people talk about mind, body, and then they talk about brains. It’s like the brain is the body, you know, it’s so important to include that. So this is why people, as they start to do this, will feel very tired. They won’t want to go to their sofas, they won’t know who they are, all the coping mechanisms will fail, all the things they used to make themselves feel better, you know, not just the key coping mechanisms you’re talking about, like things.

like shopping or television or nothing will work anymore. Why? Because we’re coming back to ourselves. The old persona, the costume is being taken off, but you can’t put the new costume on over the old. We have to fully dismantle the old for the new to arrive. And Carl Jung talks about the butterfly and Marion Woodman talks about the butterflies. Another Jungian analyst and you know,

Victoria Kleinsman (30:53.432)
Mm.

Victoria Kleinsman (31:06.734)
Mmm.

sam miller (31:16.903)
people probably don’t realise this, but for a butterfly to be made, that caterpillar doesn’t just, when it goes in its cocoon, doesn’t just grow legs and wings, it dissolves completely to soup. It deconstructs entirely so there is nothing left of the old form, of the old identity, and then it’s blueprinted due to it creates the new. But you have to hold that empty space in between of like,

Victoria Kleinsman (31:29.752)
Yeah.

sam miller (31:46.27)
Who the hell am I? I don’t know who am. I don’t know who friends are. I’ve lost my mojo. Weight, trust, and then one day, bing, I feel like doing that. Really? Wow. I’ve got one guy who was actually a hip hop artist, a rapper, who he has really suddenly found new things he’s like doing. He even expressed at one point,

suddenly fancied doing knitting. Yeah, just popped into his head. Other people, when things pop into their heads, like, God, I really want to learn to do pottery, or I really want to whatever. But it will come to you. You don’t have to go and find her. You have to become the empty space lying on a sofa, gibbering, weeping, shaking, thinking, my God, who the hell am I? And suddenly

Victoria Kleinsman (32:19.363)
wow!

Cool.

Victoria Kleinsman (32:31.246)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (32:39.907)
Yeah.

sam miller (32:45.265)
you find yourself because you were never lost.

Victoria Kleinsman (32:47.906)
Yes, I remember one part of my journey, many days, not the entire day, but I would sit in front of the mirror, like a horror movie and just like rock yourself like this. And I would just lock the door and just cry because I had so much shame in me and I wanted to crawl out of my body. I did not want to be in my body. I didn’t want to kill myself. I was like, I can’t be me, get me out of being me. So I just cried and walked. And then after that,

sam miller (33:12.613)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (33:14.86)
I didn’t feel great, but I felt more peace and then it kind of progressed from there.

sam miller (33:19.154)
And that’s a really good point because shame is an inhibitory emotion. There’s true natural shame, which is an acute thing. It’s identifying you to something you need to perhaps pay attention to, a behaviour in some way. But chronic shame is a feeling. It’s an emotion about an emotion. And it’s a blocker. It stops you getting to the root.

Victoria Kleinsman (33:24.876)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (33:39.982)
you

Victoria Kleinsman (33:43.616)
talk more about that, because shame, I talk about that a lot in my work because my experience was I just had shame just being a human and having needs. So talk about that.

sam miller (33:47.918)
Mmm.

sam miller (33:54.001)
Well, there you go. So it’s protecting you from the core. And it’s a mental thing. That’s a mental shame. So you can’t solve shame. can’t say, you know, we can talk about it. don’t bollocks. Don’t even waste your time with the shame. Just say to the shame, out of the way, please. I want to see what you’re protecting and do something like we did. Go to the shame. And, you know, we do sort of parts, parts work. You talk to it as it was a part of you and say, what are you ashamed of?

Victoria Kleinsman (34:00.717)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (34:22.53)
Mm.

sam miller (34:23.471)
and it will be a core emotion in some way. Shamed of feeling fear, ashamed of just being an emotional being. And don’t waste your time. It’s like anxiety. Don’t waste your time with anxiety. Anxiety is the blocker to what’s really underneath.

Victoria Kleinsman (34:40.664)
Yeah, it’s like a bridge of like a bridge of the communicator of like there’s something, this is not the anxiety, it’s a bridge that’s led from something else.

sam miller (34:48.996)
Yes, it’s if we’ve cut off the original core, you know, think about it this way. Core emotions, your primary emotions are physiological. Your secondary emotions are psychological. Shame is psychological. It’s something you live in your head. It’s, know, the core emotion as you felt it there is just an energy. There’s no, there’s no, there’s no talking. If you’re in your head, you’re either experiencing a secondary emotion or tertiary emotion, which is

Victoria Kleinsman (34:54.115)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (35:00.876)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (35:12.942)
Yes.

sam miller (35:18.071)
the flavour of it. my god I’m so shit I’m not gonna get well blah blah blah okay fine yeah I agree with that you’re absolutely shit you’re never gonna get well go to it because it’s just actually your body trying to help the system is trying to help you it’s trying to force you back into the body say will you feel this thing we’re choked up here we’re backlog we’re constipated and it’s really interesting when we talk about digestion and food and stuff because it is it’s never

Victoria Kleinsman (35:19.64)
Mmm.

sam miller (35:47.959)
eating disorders has nothing to do with food.

Victoria Kleinsman (35:50.382)
it’s just a symptom to show you something underneath.

sam miller (35:53.073)
It’s like drug addiction has nothing to do with drugs. For food though, is emotional indigestion. You have not allowed yourself to like, you just digested an emotion, you metabolised it to completion. And so many people too talk about the up, I felt it, but there’s also the down. That’s the release part. And that’s the lying on the sofa feeling crap. That’s the tingling. That’s often feeling nauseous when you pass it. That’s the re-patterning.

Victoria Kleinsman (36:12.888)
Yeah.

sam miller (36:20.539)
that’s being completed. That’s the integration and I talk a lot about integration. People don’t understand that that’s the most important part.

Victoria Kleinsman (36:29.454)
And in order for that to happen, what I’m hearing you say is, we just need to get out of the fucking way. Allow it. I mean, I don’t know if I’m okay when it’s safe.

sam miller (36:35.406)
Allow it all. Allow it all. And know it’s safe. Know it’s safe. It’s safe to feel absolutely shit. It’s safe to feel scared. It’s safe to feel lost. But you have to be there with it, parties, it’s safe. I mean, I’m not in a kind of one of those stupid, tell yourself, know, send yourself messages of safety by saying it’s, no, show, you show yourself you’re safe, wordlessly, by being with her and just.

demonstrating it. Talk to the ego a bit if you need to say, know you’re frightened, get out the way, I’m here, the adult, we don’t need to do that anymore. It’s fine.

Victoria Kleinsman (37:06.787)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (37:14.414)
Can everyone access that wise adult within them, do you think?

sam miller (37:18.402)
Yes, I think they can because sometimes it’s really hard because if we’ve got a lot of shame, lot of guilt, guilt’s another one, guilt, classic blocker, don’t even… acute guilt, if you’ve done something really bad, you’ll know what it is, it’ll make sense, but this kind of chronic guilt, forget it, it’s another inhibitory feeling that’s not a real emotion.

Victoria Kleinsman (37:41.358)
So what in your opinion, so shame and guilt, they’re two big ones that we talk about with my clients. What’s in your experience, the absolute root emotion, if we’re using words to describe the emotion coming through us, that they’re trying to perhaps block or make a story about?

sam miller (37:46.459)
yeah.

sam miller (37:58.842)
Well it depends on the individual, so what’s the story? So if the story might be one of fear, it might be one of anger, might, you know, you go to it and you don’t barter with it but just ask it to show you, what am I guilty about? So give me an example, what would someone say they’re guilty about?

Victoria Kleinsman (38:13.962)
eating pizza.

sam miller (38:16.238)
And what would that mean about them?

Victoria Kleinsman (38:18.146)
they would gain weight.

sam miller (38:19.684)
And what would that mean about them?

Victoria Kleinsman (38:21.698)
that they would be unattractive and unlikable to others.

sam miller (38:25.444)
and what would be the consequence of that?

Victoria Kleinsman (38:28.29)
they would be rejected, alone, disconnected.

sam miller (38:32.634)
and how would that make them feel emotionally?

Victoria Kleinsman (38:35.818)
Abandoned, rejected, unloved.

sam miller (38:38.53)
Emotionally, that’s not an emotion. Those are mental interpolation. How would being abandoned make you feel emotionally?

Victoria Kleinsman (38:47.021)
Hit.

sam miller (38:48.72)
It’s not an emotion.

Victoria Kleinsman (38:49.774)
Right, let me get to the bottom of this. How would it feel to be abandoned? Scared?

sam miller (38:56.27)
Yes, fear. Just fear. Just fear.

Victoria Kleinsman (38:57.912)
Fear, fear, fear.

Do you think that we only have at the core, because I talk about this a lot, fear or love, and everything can’t be flavored from those things? What’s your take on that?

sam miller (39:07.17)
No. No. You’ve got anger which is absolutely your life force. That’s your boundary.

Victoria Kleinsman (39:15.111)
Yeah, it’s not a bad thing. It actually can be very positive, can’t it, anger? Yeah.

sam miller (39:19.28)
It’s always positive. Proper anger is. like if somebody is, look at a dog, right? Okay. So my friend was talking to me about this. She really described this well. She’s got this elderly dog who’s very, very sweet. And he had a treat. And a dog came up to him and he tried to get on his blanket. And this dog, her dog just went, grrr. Boundary. That’s appropriate anger.

Victoria Kleinsman (39:44.098)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

sam miller (39:48.279)
It’s not violence, it’s saying a boundary. It’s saying, no, it’s a violation of my space, of who I am. You need it. Anger is your life force. Anger will save your life. All of these things are survival mechanisms. Anger, fear and grief. Grief, absolutely fundamental. Loss, and grief is not just about someone’s died, it’s about loss. Lots of, say, an identity.

Victoria Kleinsman (39:48.406)
Yes. Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (40:02.926)
Mmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (40:13.4)
Yeah.

sam miller (40:16.171)
loss of a job, loss of a relationship, loss of a feeling, loss of anything. You know we see this a lot now with people’s whole clinging onto things, clinging onto things they think they should feel. You know see this with aging and it’s a real problem. People think they should look 30 when they’re 40 because it’s loss, because these are people who have repressed stuff. Why? Why should you? Is it appropriate? You should be exactly what you feel now.

And whatever you feel is righteous, every single thing is right. Okay? Even if it’s coming from the past. But yeah, no, no, no, the love thing as well, I’d be very careful about that because love really is just, you know, it’s joy. Okay? Joy is a really fundamental thing. It’s saying, it’s leading us towards something. It’s just basically navigating us in life, saying move towards, move away. That’s for you, that’s not for you. And the emotion will tell you genuinely what it is. You can feel it.

Victoria Kleinsman (41:09.058)
Yes.

sam miller (41:14.808)
you know, you’re authentically in yourself, if it’s not for you, you’ll feel a contraction. And if it is for you, you’ll feel an expansion. But most of us live in our head think, I should be happy about that, or I should like that person, or, and of course, this just sends us completely off track. So love, tell me what you mean about love in that way, just because we’re probably talking about something in some

Victoria Kleinsman (41:19.736)
Yeah. Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (41:36.046)
So for example, with my clients, I’ll ask them the question to remind themselves what would love do in this moment? So they think of their bigger picture of freedom, living in body peace and food freedom, and in the moment, what would love choose? So it helps them with their choices and how they navigate the action, because a lot of them are living in fear, of course, and they’re responding and reacting to the fear and perpetuating the fear through their actions.

sam miller (42:01.506)
Yeah, so why don’t we just use the word allowing, because allowing is the ultimate love. Allowing loves everything. If you can love, and we’re going sort of into a non-dual thing here, you know, the ultimate compassion is to love everything. And if you love everything, it has no preference, which means you are free in that respect. What about loving your fear in that sense? Let’s just call it allowing, because you know you don’t like it. The ego, that part of you, doesn’t like it.

you’re not the ego, you’re not the costume. You’re fully aware you don’t like having a cold. You don’t have to love it but you also don’t have to resist it, you have to allow it. So again we don’t want to have to overthink it because actually just go into the body and just it’s there for a reason, whatever. So it’s you know these primal navigation systems that will keep you alive. This is what it is and keep you authentic. Anger, grief, fear.

Victoria Kleinsman (42:35.512)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (42:40.248)
Yes.

sam miller (42:59.775)
and disgust and shame and seeking as the sort of add-on. Okay? But these are fundamental things. We seek food, shelter, we seek a mate. You know, we have to be disgusted by things if they’re dangerous in some way. But the core fundamental emotions in that sense, grief, and fear, those are your life.

Victoria Kleinsman (43:25.902)
Yes, grief, rage, fear. That makes so much sense because in my healing, during my healing, we’re not healing, we’re not broken. I’m trying to word it in the correct way, but during my journey of recovery from an eating disorder, put it that way, was so much rage and I didn’t realise it was in there. I was like, I’m not an angry person. no, I’m more like, oh my God, I am boiling hot with rage right now and I have no idea why.

sam miller (43:41.197)
Of course it is.

sam miller (43:49.453)
Yes, and you can feel it, because these are real things. it is heat. Emotions are not… People think, particularly if they’ve been stuck in the head, that emotions are these conceptual things. They are real embodied things with neuropeptide. They have heat. They have chemical markers. You can feel them. You can feel them. And as you start to do this, you can feel it buzzing. This is life force. Energy, you probably know this. Energy is energy in motion.

Victoria Kleinsman (43:52.77)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (44:00.045)
Hmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (44:07.362)
Yes. Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (44:18.958)
Yes.

sam miller (44:19.084)
And emovere, comes from the Latin, to move out. It needs to move out from the nervous system. It’s held in the tissues, in the cells, in the viscera in your body. And when you start to do this, know, people, myself, you have full on practical seizures as this stuff comes out. You’ll be hot and cold, you’ll be burning. Your feet will be on fire. And then afterwards, as it goes up to your head, your head,

Victoria Kleinsman (44:22.734)
Hmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (44:40.92)
Yeah.

Yeah.

sam miller (44:48.406)
will feel like it’s exploding because it’s finally been allowed to do its journey. The message has been read. It then has to repattern it. You’ll have brain fog, you’ll have brain zaps, you’ll think I’m going mental, I can’t think. If you know what it is, you can surrender to it. System update, program update and allow. Just allow it all. Don’t try and understand it.

Victoria Kleinsman (45:03.598)
and allow.

Victoria Kleinsman (45:10.014)
my god, I have so many questions, right? I’ve got two left and feel free to make those longer or shorter as like with this. Okay, okay, the first question then that would make sense to ask in this way. Pre-language, when we were babies and our needs weren’t met and we don’t have a story because we didn’t know what cognitive language and stories were.

sam miller (45:15.892)
Yeah, can go for a bit longer, that’s fine.

Victoria Kleinsman (45:31.624)
I believe the body never forgets, the nervous system never forgets. How can that affect someone as an adult today? And they’re thinking like, you know, I had a good childhood. Like, you know, we did all these nice things and why am I severely dysregulated or dysfunctional?

sam miller (45:34.572)
What’s that?

sam miller (45:48.065)
Well, you can ask them, did it feel safe to be you? And so many people say that to me, you know, it’s like, I had such a lovely childhood, this, that, the other, right, okay, my parents were so supportive. Were they more supportive when you were like a grade A student? Were they always praising you? Were you a praise junkie? This is another really important thing, never praise, over praise children. I’ve literally seen people say, I’m so proud of you. It’s like, what? They’ve just been standing there breathing.

Victoria Kleinsman (45:51.98)
Hmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (46:17.41)
Yeah.

sam miller (46:17.44)
You know, literally hear that praise effort always, you know, whatever that effort is, but you don’t teach children to get external validation. So people become junkies and they start living for the validation of others and they start to live for approval, for connection. Because often if your parents are just at a slight level connecting with you more, if you’re good and not angry or not

Victoria Kleinsman (46:20.845)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (46:34.85)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (46:43.758)
Mm.

sam miller (46:46.38)
being too loud or too quiet or whatever you think. My job is to survive, this is all subconscious, therefore I’m dependent on these people who are providing the food, the shelter and this and that. I was just kind of morphed, this is all beyond your awareness, this is happening for babies, to be what’s gonna get my needs met most. So when I get back behind the lines, or we go sort of this war metaphor, later I can be myself. But I’ve got to get to a point where it’s safe to be me. But then we forget.

Victoria Kleinsman (47:16.024)
Mm.

sam miller (47:16.041)
and we start to identify with the costume and the ego. So this is why, you know, we should really talk about eating disorders, roles and coping mechanism at some point before we finish this. So we become, so the baby will just naturally adapt. You’re probably a bit too young, but when we had the whole, the Romanian orphanage thing, all these children, because of the laws there, they weren’t, was the abortion, this and the other.

Victoria Kleinsman (47:18.936)
you

sam miller (47:44.958)
There were overflowing orphanages full of children, okay, when the fall of Ceausescu and people went in. None of these children cried, babies, none of them cried. Why? Because there was no point. No one was coming. So they realized they might get their needs met in different ways. There’s no point. And I worked in prison for years. So that was my…

job working in prison for 25 years in the NHS and in a psychiatric hospital. But I can remember one guy saying to me, he just never cried because he can remember just sitting in his, standing in his cot, crying and crying and no one ever came. So you don’t do that because it risks vulnerability and it’s a waste of resources. So you become what you need to do. So you might be funny, you might be perfect, you might be helpful, you might be whatever you need to do to just get your needs met, but you’re certainly not going to risk.

abandonment because abandonment for the child when it’s dependent is death, total death. So actually the happiest childhoods can be as dysfunctional and that’s where these covert trauma comes in. And if you’ve got parents, I know from having worked in inpatient eating disorders, it’s very interesting because we had, because I was working

Victoria Kleinsman (48:45.442)
Yeah.

sam miller (49:10.155)
through art and we had a little exhibition and the parents came and it’s so, you know, it just tells you everything when you see the parental interaction with the child, know, and parents who were eating disorder themselves or had coping mechanisms, all in different ways, but all of whom were, everything was sort of conditional as to how they loved their child, you know, and that’s the thing when a baby learns it’s,

Victoria Kleinsman (49:20.205)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (49:32.984)
Mm.

Yeah.

sam miller (49:39.796)
conditional, you have to earn love, you stop living automatically from your emotional self and you start becoming what you need to get your needs met and it’s a survival game then.

Victoria Kleinsman (49:52.184)
Yeah, I think I need to have you as a therapist coach to help me bring my daughter up so I’m not gonna fuck off in different ways.

sam miller (50:00.458)
Well, I mean, it’s a very hard environment because, you know, the main thing is to let her emerge, not lead. Even as much as like taking toys away from children and just let them make their own toys. There’s some mud, there’s a stick. You know, this is extreme thing. And they will find their way, it will authentically, because we are just leading children the whole time. Constantly.

Victoria Kleinsman (50:16.46)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (50:27.394)
Yes.

sam miller (50:29.172)
telling them what they should be, we’re taking away their imagination and imagination is absolutely fundamental. That’s, that’s, is the seeking thing. I’m bored, I’m bored, I’m bored, I’m bored, I’m bored, I’m bored. I’ve just invented the wheel. You know, that’s the way it works. Not like, here I am scrolling. Do you think anything new is going to happen? Never.

Victoria Kleinsman (50:38.988)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (50:48.896)
No, you’re being fed to, you’re being told what to be and what to believe and what to be afraid of and what to appreciate and wow. Okay, so this is a huge question. How does someone, let’s take eating disorder for example, coping mechanism, we’ve used it to suppress emotions, to fit in and all the things that we do.

sam miller (50:51.455)
Yeah.

sam miller (51:04.649)
Thank

sam miller (51:09.277)
Mm.

Victoria Kleinsman (51:10.016)
How do they start to heal without forcing the healing? actually, if they don’t feel safe in their body as an adult living day to day, how do they then start to, what word should I use other than heal? What word would process allow?

sam miller (51:17.789)
Yes. Yes.

sam miller (51:25.257)
process allow. So basically, know, effectively, first of all, we have to establish that your disordered eating is just a coping mechanism to try and keep everyone away from the real you. Because it wasn’t safe to be you. So you had to do whatever you had to do, not to feel feelings that were unacceptable. So some people overexercise, some people overeat, under eat, purge, become perfect.

Victoria Kleinsman (51:34.947)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (51:39.212)
Yes.

sam miller (51:51.913)
Some people take drugs, some people come to gambling, shopping, sex, and know, process addiction is worth mentioning here because these are the sneaky ones. All of these things that are trying to control whatever is apparently unacceptable. And so one of the gateways back to that is every time you feel these are compulsions effectively, compelled to do an action.

to change the present moment. So you give me an example. So give me an example of one of your clients. So when they feel compelled to engage in.

Victoria Kleinsman (52:29.29)
in a lot of exercise in order to feel worthy enough to eat.

sam miller (52:31.964)
Yeah. Yes, right. First of all, you have to just stop and say.

Body show me, little you show me what would happen if I couldn’t do the exercise.

Victoria Kleinsman (52:48.526)
panic, panic, panic, like danger, danger. If I’m thinking of the past, me, danger, panic.

sam miller (52:52.988)
Yeah, danger. So show me where that is in the body and just go to your body and be with it because it’s an old energy that wasn’t allowed to be felt because you weren’t allowed to feel like that when you were younger. And it’s getting stronger and stronger and stronger and while we have to run and run and exercise more and more to more to do it because this is life force. It’s coming out. It’s coming out and telling you and it will. It will.

Victoria Kleinsman (53:07.841)
Yes.

sam miller (53:22.096)
So you have to go to and say, okay, show me what’s there. What am I trying to solve with the running or whatever? Because there’s nothing actually wrong with eating. There’s nothing wrong with running. Okay. It’s why we use it. And if you’re using it to get to a feeling the other side or to avoid a feeling that’s happening now, that’s the problem. So show me what it is this is trying to solve. Go to the body, just like we did. Breathe up to it.

Victoria Kleinsman (53:29.379)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (53:35.811)
Yeah.

sam miller (53:50.62)
and I’ll add, I’ll send you a breathing exercise afterwards that your clients can work with and just say, I’m here. I am now listening. Show me what it is you couldn’t feel. For 30 seconds, allow it. Your ego is going to be going mental. It’s going to be sending up into your head. No, no, no, we can’t go there. We can’t go there. It’s going to kill us. Everyone will hate us. We’ll starve to death. We’ll die in the wilderness because this is a child part of you. And just go, no, stand aside. I am here.

Victoria Kleinsman (54:02.712)
Mm.

sam miller (54:20.453)
that part of you that can see that younger part of you, that’s the adult. She knows, she’s the one that turns up to your groups, right? She is the adult, she’s there, the big you. Just say the little you, it’s fine. Let her speak. 30 seconds, don’t need to, it will probably get worse because you’re allowing that to be, and then go for the run if you need to, okay? And then after a while, you’ll need to do it less and less and less. You can’t just stop a coping mechanism the same way you can’t just stop

Victoria Kleinsman (54:41.624)
Mmm.

sam miller (54:50.193)
you know, stop anything because it’s too much. It will overwhelm you. It’s there for a reason and we need to do it gradually and gently and it’s a very good solution. It kept you alive.

Victoria Kleinsman (54:50.606)
Okay.

Victoria Kleinsman (54:54.306)
Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (55:02.402)
Yes. Do we need to know where, when, let’s say that run example you gave and someone connected to body show me and they feel the sensation, the energy moving through. Do we need to, is it helpful to know where it was created? Like what was the story, what happened?

sam miller (55:18.563)
None. None. Get out. That’s the head stuff. You don’t need to. And interesting enough, like you just did that thing. You saw it. Seven years old in a staple. It’s like, hello. You don’t need to. It will just land in your awareness. And it’s like, it’s the finishing of that. It’s like the credits at the end of the film. That thing you couldn’t feel for 30 years, suddenly, done.

Victoria Kleinsman (55:27.148)
Yeah, it was shown without me even going there.

Again.

sam miller (55:48.06)
gone, been, that’s it. And you have to do that many times. So feel her and you’ll often start to, you know, if your clients, you’ll feel them, that little you, feeling the terror, the abandonment, the fear of rejection, but you’re not rejecting her.

Victoria Kleinsman (55:49.57)
Well.

Victoria Kleinsman (56:05.932)
No, I’m there for her.

sam miller (56:07.099)
That’s the whole point, which means she can feel some of that disquiet and then say, and then we’ll carry on. You go back to what you’re engaging with. But with the full knowledge that that’s sort of like taking the pain relief as you’re learning to fully allow, because allowing is a skill, but to very, very clear, you know, and as you know, these are all addictions. Running is an addiction. It’s a process addiction. Running itself,

Victoria Kleinsman (56:16.803)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (56:25.73)
Yes.

sam miller (56:36.951)
not a problem. When we use it to change our state you’re in trouble and of course just to talk about it the runner’s high. You run, run, you run, run, Bing, tick goes into parasympathetic mode, rest and digest, the peace, thank God, thank God. That’s what you want but you’re chasing it but it’s false and so you need to run more and more and more and the runner’s high gets less and less and less until the end you’re just running to avoid

Victoria Kleinsman (56:56.291)
Yeah.

sam miller (57:06.426)
that hideous, scratching, internal hell feeling as this energy is trying to claw out of you. So you’re not even running to try and get the runners high. You’re running just to avoid, you’re running away from the energy that is you trying to complete, which means you’re not gonna have to run anyway forever in the future because you just did it. You got the parasympathetic because you earned it. You didn’t get it because you pushed it away by trying to overlay it with a stronger state.

you got it because finally, ding, you completed a sympathetic activation charge and it came down again. So people don’t feel bad about still doing the coping mechanisms, but ask yourself, just stop before you reach for the food or choose to purge or feel in any way that you have to control or check.

Victoria Kleinsman (57:35.907)
Yes.

sam miller (58:02.629)
the purity of your food or consider its worth, just stop and think, what would happen if I didn’t? Show me what this impulse, because what’s happened is, I’ll just talk a bit about the deeper psychology. We have these parts of us, which are quite complexes, these are parts of us that are in the subconscious, the shadow, the parts we couldn’t feel, and they get triggered, okay, which in Jungian terms,

constellated when they’re coming close to the surface, they’re coming close to the surface because they’re ready to be felt. And the ego goes, oh my God, May Day, May Day, my God, we must stop it, we must run, we must do this, we must pick up an emotional support water bottle and swig something even though we’re not dehydrated, whatever, to try and just say, over here, don’t look over here, that’s where the thing is. And it’s like having to do a bigger song and dance to distract you from the very thing that actually is you.

Victoria Kleinsman (58:52.184)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (59:00.962)
you

sam miller (59:01.424)
So when you want your triggers, you say, okay, it feels horrible, it feels like hell, the ego thinks it’s gonna die, you just think it’s disgusting beyond belief. That feeling is repulsive beyond any civilian being able to imagine. Let’s be clear about that. But there’s a pilot light, that part of you that’s the adult self that says, yeah, we’re just throwing up, we are just.

I mean it’s probably a bad, you know I’m talking about the the billimix here, but it is a good analogy. You are vomiting to completion and it fits in again as well. You’re trying to purge yourself. It’s purging for you. It’s a purification of something that is now old and it’s emotion. It’s not food, it’s not any of these things, but throwing up for most people isn’t very pleasant, but you feel better afterwards.

Victoria Kleinsman (59:33.784)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (59:55.15)
No.

sam miller (59:58.093)
with your client cohort because they feel they’ve managed an emotion but actually for other people it’s just they’ve got rid of something. Either way it’s something moving through. Much better to try and just let it happen naturally through the body as this repressed emotional survival charge or energy before you feel because it’s interesting because the impulse is so interesting with with Bulemix is that there is a need to get rid of something but what we think it’s

Victoria Kleinsman (01:00:24.878)
Yes, it’s like they can’t hold onto it. It’s too much, you need to get it out.

sam miller (01:00:30.317)
Yes, because we’re full, because the nervous system is full of this held energy and we don’t understand actually it has to come through our symptoms and the symptoms here are eating disorder behaviour. For some people it’s hideous head pain, other people it’s you know back pain but it’s trying to come through as energy so we just need to let it come through the channel it’s meant to which is

in the body and feel it. We don’t need to midwife it in any way beyond allowing it.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:01:07.534)
So the key word is allow, allow, allow.

sam miller (01:01:11.532)
allow and easier said than done but allow anything you have to realise you’re not it so this is establishing the witness am i my pain am i my shame am i even the one who who is it having a thought you can’t be it the park can understand the whole you can’t be it you cannot be the person you know you cannot be the thought you have to be beyond the thought to see it you have to be beyond the pain

Victoria Kleinsman (01:01:14.189)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:01:24.63)
If you’re witnessing it, you’re not it.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:01:38.892)
Yes.

sam miller (01:01:40.628)
the terror, the disgusting feeling to be able to witness it. How would you know it was disgusting, that feeling, if there wasn’t a part of you that didn’t feel like that? Because your awareness of it, that part that allows the adult part of you is never sick, is always safe, is completely fine with everything, just like a mirror that will show you every single thing you point at. look, there’s a disgusting thought. look, there’s a kitten.

there’s something I like, there’s something I don’t like, look there’s even me because I’m the awareness of it all and so just step back into that and just go who is it that’s scared?

Victoria Kleinsman (01:02:12.622)
You

Victoria Kleinsman (01:02:19.832)
Yeah.

sam miller (01:02:21.528)
and just say, show me and go to it.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:02:24.11)
my god, Sam, I could talk to you for like five hours and it’s so interesting that my body’s like, you know, like when you’re cold and you shiver, but I’m not cold. It’s doing the whole shiver thing and I know like that’s…

sam miller (01:02:37.079)
Well, that’s because I’m talking to you in a way that makes those parts of you feel seen. So they feel safe enough. So you’re actually discharging some survival energy at a very low level, probably a refrigerator hum level of old energy. And by the way, that’s the safety. You don’t need to create safety by all this rubbish that people are talking about. And by the way, this is all free. Allowing is free. It’s nature.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:02:39.906)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:02:49.486)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:03:04.962)
Yes.

sam miller (01:03:07.107)
You don’t have to do that. I’m going to create safety in my body. I’m going create safety. Oh my God. know, it’s like, it’s just like being with it says, showing up to that part of you says it’s safe because I’m there. And then so she, that part of you, the nervous system, when you go in, you go into this, the ventral vagal state goes, hallelujah, it’s safe.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:03:10.798)
Top, top, top, top, top, top, top.

Thank

Victoria Kleinsman (01:03:33.506)
Yeah, yeah.

sam miller (01:03:35.843)
And you don’t have to wait for someone else to make you feel safe. And this is what we’ve all been looking for our whole lives, by the way. We’ve been looking for the relationship, the other person, the one who meets the needs of little us, because that part that’s engaging in this still thinks she’s the child. So she’s looking for the adult, but it’s like, hello, I’m here. I’m you. And you just go, oh, adult Victoria, I go into big me. And it’s like, little Victoria, it’s fine. Show me what you’ve got. I’m here.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:03:52.451)
Yes.

sam miller (01:04:05.827)
That’s all right, my love, do whatever. Do it for 30 seconds, make a cup of tea. And I’ll put, I don’t know if I’ve done some nice guided meditations which help with this. There’s one called the Great Allowing, which is quite popular. I’ll send you those. And what it does is it helps the ego get out of the way, it helps create this safety. I’ve written it so that it will put you in a state

Victoria Kleinsman (01:04:22.158)
Yes.

sam miller (01:04:35.49)
where naturally some of this stuff will start to move through you and people when they start to do it don’t be surprised if you have weird and wonderful things happen to you. I’m also going to send you breathing exercise as well. It’s still a bit rough around the edges because my person hasn’t done all the editing and put music on yet but it still works well enough and report back because it will do it on its own.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:04:40.77)
Yes.

sam miller (01:05:04.576)
and the bliss of not having to be stuck in your head.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:05:08.148)
yeah, the freedom also that comes with that. I mean, I’ve reached a high level of freedom, which is why I do what I do, but there’s still a higher level of freedom to reach just out of experience, just from witnessing you and the way you show up and speak and the safety you create just by being you. So thank you for being you, Sam.

sam miller (01:05:26.338)
Well, it’s, oh my God, the cat’s just turned the bin over. We bins. You know, it’s okay to, and this is the other thing I wanted to just, you know, finish with. It’s okay to be normal. You do not have to be exceptional. You do not have to be perfect because it’s a coping mechanism. And I think people so misunderstand this with, you know, obviously body dysmorphia is gonna be a big part of this. Because if I am perfect, no one can reject me.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:05:51.096)
yes. Yeah.

sam miller (01:05:55.635)
If no one rejects me, I’m not going to die alone as a child, as a baby. That’s what it’s about. That’s it. So feeling the discomfort of not being perfect, it’s so liberating. It’s so liberating. What is perfect? There is no perfect. No perfect exists. And no one’s attracted by that. And we have an epidemic of people doing what I call face fuckery. You know, all of this stuff, which is, of course, people think it’s about vanity.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:05:55.651)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:06:07.896)
Mm.

sam miller (01:06:25.417)
It’s not. It’s not about vanity. It’s about saying, love me. And it’s about love me so I don’t have to feel the fear because that heart still thinks she’s three. And of course, the drugs don’t work after a while. So you start with one thing. I feel a bit better because I feel a bit safer with that. But then it goes on and on and on on on on until there’s nothing left to do. And you end up as some

Victoria Kleinsman (01:06:31.022)
about safety.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:06:35.084)
Yeah.

Yes.

sam miller (01:06:55.265)
know, a zempict skeleton with, you know, more problems than you started. And it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s really, really, I mean, I don’t know if you have you’ve been having lots of people talking about these weight loss.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:06:58.542)
Thank you.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:07:12.014)
Sadly, yes, because I thought we were getting somewhere with the whole body neutrality or even body positivity movement and then OZempic comes along and then now everyone has no client’s words, excuse to be fat anymore, but they’re missing the whole point of everything, which is a conversation we’ve just had. I think it’s very damaging.

sam miller (01:07:30.881)
It’s very damaging and think the long-term consequences are going to be profoundly disturbing. I’ve got a friend I work with and she is a functional nutritionist and she’s now seen the light. She’s realised it’s not about the food. In terms of actually what your gut issues are about, anything is all about nervous system indigestion and this that and the other. And she’s got so many people now who used to come for her weight issues and this that and the other and health issues.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:07:46.572)
No.

sam miller (01:08:00.72)
and who are now being seduced by these weight loss drugs, they’re just, it’s no different than taking heroin for your feeling of disconnection because the root is still under there and I’m sure you’re… Cat, stop that. Fairly aware of the ACE studies and how it was discovered by Vincent Felletti as he was working with obese people. And that’s how he discovered it because the obesity…

Victoria Kleinsman (01:08:07.502)
you

Victoria Kleinsman (01:08:19.042)
Yes.

sam miller (01:08:29.81)
was solving a problem of safety, which is so fascinating. So it’s a brilliant adaptation. For some people, it’s a good choice to be morbidly obese because it’s the only way they have been able to, from that younger part, find safety. So this is why there’s no shame at all. Everyone is working within the best of their ability in that sense. So, yeah, it’s really problematic.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:08:39.715)
Yeah.

sam miller (01:08:59.122)
All those people who are having those jabs, of course, have got the unresolved emotional charge still in them.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:09:07.968)
underneath it all and then they might lose weight and think, great, feel better, confident, happy, ready to meet a partner. No, it’s all gonna, it’s still that.

sam miller (01:09:16.512)
and then they get back pain or then they get migraines or then they get dizziness and vestibular issues or chronic fatigue syndrome because it will have to come out somewhere.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:09:24.482)
Yes.

Yeah, wow. I mean, first of all, thank you, Sam. Second of all, can you come on again, even if I pay for your time, because there’s so much more I want to ask you.

sam miller (01:09:33.226)
You’re very welcome.

sam miller (01:09:39.988)
Yes, at some point, yes, happily. And maybe even get some, you could do this, or if you’ve got some clients who want some questions answered, could come, people could come on and I could do some allowing with them, if you fancy that.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:09:52.211)
yes, please. Well, I’ll definitely get that sorted with you.

sam miller (01:09:55.954)
Yeah, we could get a group of say 10 people or something or five people or whoever and we can just do some practical stuff.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:10:03.522)
Yes, yes, yes, please. And number three, are you, do you take on clients? How can people work with you?

sam miller (01:10:12.808)
I’m fully booked for eternity. I’ve actually even stopped the wait list now because I can’t because if you’re on the wait list, people go, where am on the wait list? It’s like, you know, call a number five. You are now, you know, whatever. It’s just too too much. So but I am I do have a group that that’s closed as well. I have a group that I see once a week. But I in January, I’m starting an online inexpensive because it’s a big thing for me because I’m very

Victoria Kleinsman (01:10:14.38)
I can imagine, I bet you’ve got a 10 year wait list.

Yeah.

sam miller (01:10:42.751)
pissed off by how people are fleecing, really extorting money from people at a terrible rate in this, this, the wellness space, I call it the unwellness space, it’s really toxic. my God, what have you done? God, the cat.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:10:46.712)
Mm.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:10:55.661)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:11:01.046)
You’re going to be busy after this conversation.

sam miller (01:11:03.486)
shredded everything everywhere. So it’s going to be inexpensive, it’s going to be online, you know, it’s going to be a private group via YouTube. I’ll be hopping on, I’ll be putting things on every day or every week and it’s going to be guiding us through lots of this. So that’s the thing I can do for people in the meantime, but as well I’m also putting loads and loads of free stuff on YouTube which if you’re super self-directed you can do it all without having to spend a penny.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:11:31.982)
Mm.

sam miller (01:11:31.998)
You know, there’s going to be enough there for people to do that. But I think, you know, I’ve got people who have had disordered eating as part of their whole, you know, coping mechanisms as they’ve gone through it. I haven’t, I don’t specifically work with any one group, because it’s all the same thing. I don’t work, because it’s a symptom, not interested in symptoms.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:11:55.342)
it is,

sam miller (01:11:59.484)
I’m worried about the cause. Forget about wafting away the smoke or forget about even trying to blow the fire out. Understand why the fire was lit in the first place because that is key. It’s the quickest, fastest route like the exercise I did to you. You could be in therapy for years talking about that feeling and, you know, thinking about that time at the stables or you can just let the body do it for you. Not to say we don’t have to talk a lot to understand first why we’re here.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:12:22.35)
you

sam miller (01:12:29.309)
because particularly as left brain people, we need to have that sort of meta map of our consciousness so that we can then step away from it and trust it enough. Because all of us, because we dysregulated because of our oppression and not being able to be us, are highly suspicious. We are not going to trust anything unless we understand it intellectually because that’s how we navigate the world now because we…

are offline from our emotions, we’re disconnected. So this is why I chunter on endlessly on YouTube, pretty much saying the same thing in a million different ways so that eventually people’s ego defences will soften and go, oh actually, maybe, because we are the person who will find the mistake in the book that thick, because that part of us is still looking for a reason to explain why we feel in danger.

We feel in danger because we’ve still got the charge of danger from childhood. And by the way, this is another thing I just want to quickly say is that people are scared that when they start feeling they’ll be overwhelmed. You can’t overwhelm them like this because that feeling of, just think about you Victoria, that feeling you felt, the feeling of it’s sad when you were seven, it was probably nothing. You just didn’t get to ride the horse you wanted to that day or something, you know, or something.

But to little you, that was a big feeling. So people don’t have to worry they’re going to be overcome by existential trauma. If you only work with what is presenting in the moment that is trying that your coping mechanism is trying to distract you away from, it’s giving you the exact dose. You can not only allow to be felt, but the ego will be allowed to be integrated and completed.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:13:58.018)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:14:04.14)
Yeah.

sam miller (01:14:24.155)
and it’s the completion that’s

Victoria Kleinsman (01:14:26.936)
So it’s trusting whatever’s coming up, you can handle it and it’s coming up at the right time.

sam miller (01:14:30.501)
Yes, and you don’t need to go looking, you don’t need to be journaling endlessly and all that stuff because you won’t get to it anyway with journaling. You’ll just get the superficial runoff. It’s a bit like when we’re crying, you know, that’s just, I do want to say that because people will say, but I cry all the time, I’m so in touch with my emotions. Those are not your emotion, that’s not the core emotion. If there’s any kind of story, it’s not the real thing. Real.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:14:56.238)
Even the shame story, that really interested me because I talk a lot about that but that kind of gave me a lot more power in a way to know that the shame isn’t actually the root feeling, it’s like a story to make sense of or the story I’ve created around the root.

sam miller (01:15:12.133)
It’s a mental interpretation of what you haven’t been able to feel. Know that you’ve got certain feelings, your ego, consciousness, doesn’t know that the shadow exists. So it doesn’t know what it is. So it’s trying desperately to make sense of what’s happening. And it’s trying to think the emotion. So it’s the emotion about the emotion. So if there’s lots of thinking, it’s not the real deal.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:15:29.186)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:15:35.502)
Hmm.

sam miller (01:15:41.521)
when you’re having the proper releasing crying you’re just a gibbering, burping, shaking wreck there’s no story it’s just pure primal it is these are your primal energies that are to keep you alive you know and they’re so desperate to come back so that you can re-regulate and use them they’ll just come out anywhere any part of the nervous system they’ll present

Victoria Kleinsman (01:15:51.822)
that primal.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:15:59.374)
you

sam miller (01:16:11.098)
Answer your thoughts or try and get you back.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:16:15.0)
So incredibly powerful wise, just wow. Thank you so much, Sam.

sam miller (01:16:19.956)
You’re very welcome. So I’ll send you a few things through. I’d really like some feedback from how this worked for people. You know, and maybe I will do something more on specific eating disorders and maybe we can do a thing every couple of months or something if it helps people. You know, might be useful because I think it’s a growing problem. I think orthorexia is getting out of control.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:16:23.619)
Yes.

Thanks.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:16:37.73)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:16:43.009)
It is.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:16:47.97)
Yes.

sam miller (01:16:50.112)
You know, you only have to see… I mean, I find it very disturbing that you go into a restaurant here in London now and people ask you if you’ve got an allergy. It’s like, well, I didn’t until now. Thanks for suggesting that.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:17:02.446)
Maybe I’ve got a gluten allergy because apparently gluten is bad for me so I’ll just avoid gluten now.

sam miller (01:17:08.124)
my god. Gluten is one of the first presentations of mind-body and how many people have gluten intolerance? Absurd. mean, no one, no one ever had gluten intolerance till… But I have to tell you, I’ve got three people in my group, most people are quite severe in my group, who are flaring on water, have become allergic to water, because it’s not about the food. It’s not about the food. It isn’t.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:17:16.973)
a lot.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:17:23.318)
No. No.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:17:31.658)
or… well… no.

sam miller (01:17:37.943)
So, yes, the gluten thing, the I’m allergic to this, forget it. I mean, and the joy when you can just be a normal person who does normal things, doesn’t have to be exceptional, can still be loved, doesn’t need approval because you approve of yourself.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:17:55.234)
Yes. Freedom.

sam miller (01:17:58.043)
freedom. Just to have a cup of tea or to have a piece of cake or whatever. One of my friends, I’ll just finish on this, she was very severely anorexic and was hospitalised between the age of 12 and 18 and is 100 % completely and utterly healed in every way and

Victoria Kleinsman (01:17:59.246)
Breathe in.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:18:24.686)
Good.

sam miller (01:18:27.291)
I have to just tell you one of the things that was a changing point for her. she was, you know, it’s all the stuff we talk about and now she’s like a massive foodie, never goes to the gym, never does any of that stuff, none of it completely. But one of the changing points for her, you know, she met this guy who was a bit of a maverick in the field, I can’t remember what his name was, and she met him, I think when she was, you know, 17, and he just said, I shit on your anorexia.

That was the first thing he said and she said that was her. My Lord, I’m not my anorexia. It’s made a schism between her and the thing. And suddenly realised, I want to be a people pleaser and you don’t like my anorexia. And it sort of just changed the whole thing up and it suddenly made her realise she wasn’t the thing.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:19:06.062)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:19:16.918)
Yeah, that she thought she was, that she identified as. Yes.

sam miller (01:19:19.481)
Yes. And it was, it’s a very, it seems quite shocking, but it’s like, it’s just a thing that you do.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:19:28.162)
Yes, that’s the coping mechanism.

sam miller (01:19:30.041)
Yeah, and she said everything changed for her from then. She suddenly no longer felt this loyalty to the thing that she felt was her friend. You know, and it’s just an interesting thing. I don’t know what people think about that. But for her that really helped because it is, you are not your coping mechanism. You are not even your body. We know that. You’re not your mind. Your mind is just another tool.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:19:37.358)
Mm. Mm. Mm-hmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:19:52.812)
No. You don’t even mind, I believe. No.

Yes.

sam miller (01:20:00.931)
It’s just, you are, if you can see your mind working, how can you be your mind? You’re the awareness. You’re the awareness beyond it all, the ultimate allower. So,

Victoria Kleinsman (01:20:09.71)
You know, last question, because I do need to go, because my husband’s hovering around with my baby over there. There’s a song, and I can’t think of the song, I’ll send it to you, because I think you’ll like it. And he says in the song, can the perceiver be perceived? And I’m like, ooh, can the perceiver be perceived?

sam miller (01:20:13.883)
Yeah.

sam miller (01:20:28.537)
Well, I think you’ll like this guided exercise I’ll send you in. I’d like you to do it first today and report back. Okay, bye.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:20:34.285)
yes, he is. Thank you, sir.

Yes, I will. I will do. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I’m gonna press start, but can you just leave your browser up to do what it needs to do for a couple of minutes after? All right, thank you, love. Much love, lots of love, bye. Bye.

sam miller (01:20:49.09)
Of course. Take care. Bye.

Right, what are you up to?

sam miller (01:21:22.241)
Elfie? Elfie?