Victoria Kleinsman (00:01.542)
I think we’re live. Yeah, we’re doing it. Well, welcome back to the podcast. We’ve had so much incredible feedback from the episode that Christina and Susie and I did together. So we’re back again. Welcome, Great. And we have lots of questions, so we’ll dive in and then the conversation will, of course, go the way it’s supposed to go in an intuitive manner. So the first question.

Susan Horky (00:04.365)
you

ChristinaH (00:14.008)
Hello! Yeah.

Susan Horky (00:15.202)
Thank you. It’s nice to be here.

Victoria Kleinsman (00:29.82)
We have Susie and Christina is from Georgie and she says, love the episode, it was so helpful. What fabulous ladies who are rocking recovery. Can you kindly ask them what recovery symptoms they found most challenging as I’m getting very out of breath when trying to do any exercise. Thank you for all your do you’re a star. So I guess what recovery symptoms did you find most challenging? And if we go Susie first for this one, then we’ll swap.

for the next question.

Susan Horky (01:00.126)
Sounds good. Gosh, I mean the body, how my body felt not in terms of not in terms of like GI problems or anything but just in terms of having so much more body that I was aware of. So my thighs, my stomach, my breasts got

big, my arms are thicker. So that was probably the hardest. But in terms of like get running and getting out of breath, I absolutely cannot run at the pace. I mean, I never was a fast, I was a jogger anyway, but I am very slow. And actually, fortunately, Christina introduced me to this thing called slogging, which is slow jogging. And it actually defines describes what I’ve already been doing. But I think

Yeah, and many people describe having a lot more energy in recovery. I did not particularly feel a difference. And I think part of that was that I would override. If I had no energy before, I would just ignore that and forge ahead. And so I was sort of hoping that I would feel energetic and I didn’t feel particularly energetic. And then the one thing that was good was I used to be so cold.

ChristinaH (02:09.86)
Hmm.

Susan Horky (02:23.296)
And now I don’t get, I just, I’m sort of normal in terms of temperature, so. That’s me.

ChristinaH (02:24.668)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (02:31.738)
Thank you, Susie. Christina, what were your most challenging recovery symptoms?

ChristinaH (02:36.836)
Well in terms of exercise, when Georgie said that I thought, yes, like Susan I would always be able to operate at quite an intense level, so I’d do hits and I’d run and everything had to be huff and puff and really getting me sweating, getting my heart rate up, but I would be able to sustain it. And as soon as I started gaining that,

Not that I’ve gained an awful lot. I’ve only actually gone up a whole dress size since my recovery. yeah, it’s like Susan, that just ability to sustain that higher intensity has just gone. And so yeah, like Susan was saying, I found this thing called slogging just the other day on the internet. I thought, that’s awesome. Because now when I run, I can’t.

I can’t run for a sustained period without having to walk for a period of time. And first of all, that was the world’s worst thing because I couldn’t give myself permission to walk. I’ve got to run, run, because that’s what I’m supposed to be doing. But now, because I haven’t actually tried the slogging since I spoke to Sue. So I’m looking forward to giving that a go, to giving myself permission to run really slowly. So that’s, I’ve been a bit…

Victoria Kleinsman (03:50.311)
I need it.

ChristinaH (03:59.736)
haven’t answered it all that well, yeah, just not being able to operate at that same intensity for any sustained period of time anymore. So for me, what I’ve needed to do is to change my mode of movement, what I try to refer to as movement rather than exercise these days. So I teach reformer.

Victoria Kleinsman (04:13.832)
Thank

ChristinaH (04:20.152)
So I do that, which I love. I do a couple of strength sessions a week because I’ve got osteoporosis. And what else do I do? I do my walk run. Now I’m going to try slogging. And yoga is something that I feel I really should do more of. I just don’t seem to get myself organized to get to a class. And then I’m too ill-disciplined these days to do it myself at home because I don’t really care.

Susan Horky (04:43.79)
which is a good, which is a plus.

ChristinaH (04:45.932)
Yeah, but I think just in terms of how I feel with exercise like Susan, you know, just having these heavier breasts that move up and down, having the thighs rubbing together, those sorts of things have been things that have taken a while to adjust to, yeah.

Susan Horky (05:01.496)
been challenging.

Victoria Kleinsman (05:04.871)
And I’ll add my little bit here too, and it’s both the same as both of you ladies. For me, it was the bigger body in movement, the legs moving together. When I was doing a plank, I was like, my God, what’s that? Like hanging down. When I was doing the legs, when I was doing like the leg press, was like, there’s actually something in the way now when my legs go down.

Susan Horky (05:15.181)
Yes.

ChristinaH (05:15.448)
Yes.

Susan Horky (05:19.258)
my god!

ChristinaH (05:21.827)
Yeah!

Susan Horky (05:24.184)
Bye!

ChristinaH (05:24.766)
I gravity do this!

Susan Horky (05:32.982)
Yes, when they come up. Right, right. Ugh.

Victoria Kleinsman (05:36.008)
Yeah, and just walking and feeling bigger in my body and being out of breath like Georgie is experiencing and you know, yes it’s different now because I’m well into recovery, like what, six years into recovery so I say I’m of course fully recovered but I also don’t do exercise in the same way as I used to like both of you ladies, I just move my body in a way that feels good so I don’t compare how I am now to how I used to be, it’s just different and easy and recoverable now.

ChristinaH (06:05.124)
Yes. Yeah.

Susan Horky (06:06.21)
Yeah. Well, you know, one thing about being older in recovery is that it’s sometimes hard to say, am I getting less good at this or do you know, do I get more tired or whatever because I’m older or because I’m bigger, you know, and that’s a, it’s, you really don’t know which it is. Cause it’s been two years now and I’m in my late sixties. So some of what I, mean, obviously the body stuff is bigger body, but like,

ChristinaH (06:20.388)
basically.

Susan Horky (06:33.912)
My cardiovascular system maybe is just toning down a little bit. So who knows? Yep, exactly. I’ll just go with whatever happens.

ChristinaH (06:38.084)
Yeah

That’s actually a really good… Sorry. Yeah. I think… Can you hear that sort of whooshing in the background? Yeah. I don’t know what that is. Anyway… No, me neither.

Victoria Kleinsman (06:43.664)
Everything will be okay.

Victoria Kleinsman (06:47.912)
you see that going?

Victoria Kleinsman (06:53.318)
Yeah, I’m not sure what he thinks.

Susan Horky (06:58.126)
I’ve had trouble sometimes on Zoom when my mic makes noise, so I’ve been muting my mic, but I’m not sure whether, I don’t think it’s helping any.

ChristinaH (07:07.66)
Yeah, I’ll just try, like, do you want me to just try the mute?

Victoria Kleinsman (07:08.456)
Let’s keep going.

Victoria Kleinsman (07:15.622)
Yeah, that is, it is noise from Christina, weirdly, but we can still hear your voice though, at least, when you do speak.

ChristinaH (07:21.144)
that’s weird. I’m in a silent room with nobody. So I’ll just mute myself when I’m not talking. Can you hear it now? okay. Maybe it was just something with my computer. Yeah, talking about that.

Victoria Kleinsman (07:28.646)
Okay. No, the washing’s gone now.

Susan Horky (07:36.194)
And it may be mine too, mean, it may be both of us.

ChristinaH (07:39.17)
No, I can’t hear it now. Yeah, just on that cardiovascular thing, being older and not being able to sustain that same level of activity, whereas…

you know, whenever I’ve done exercise up until the last couple of years, I’ve always got to go a bit faster. I’ve got to go a bit further or bit more intensely and get the heart rate up a little bit higher and you know, all that sort of stuff. And, and of course I can’t do that anymore. But one of the things, the key things that I had to do was get rid of the Apple watch. I had to chuck it out and I had to take myself off Strava so I wouldn’t be comparing with other people. And yeah, that was a big one.

Victoria Kleinsman (08:15.132)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (08:25.019)
you’re muted Suzie.

ChristinaH (08:26.852)
You

Susan Horky (08:29.262)
Take two, just removing oneself from all of that measurement and comparison because having it but then not trying not to pay attention doesn’t really work.

ChristinaH (08:42.146)
Not for me.

Victoria Kleinsman (08:42.588)
Yeah, agree with that. Agree with that. All right, let’s see. The next ones are, let me bring my, so these are from Ken, how do I say your name? Kenyan, that’s a nice name, Kenyan. She says, okay, in menopause and recovery, how did your eating disorder impact your experience of menopause? So hot flashes, brain fog, fatigue. And we’ll go with Christina answering this one first.

Susan Horky (08:46.478)
Yes.

ChristinaH (09:10.884)
Okay, when I started recovery, was 50, what was I? 53 going on, sorry, I’m taking 10 years off, 63 going on 64. So, you know, I’m well at the other side now and I hadn’t had any of the hot flushes or night sweats or…

for quite a while. I’d had those more in my early 50s in the earliest stage of my menopause but interestingly and I don’t know whether it’s related or not recently I’ve just had the odd one and it’s just really you know just the odd one it’ll only

know come up for a few minutes and then it’ll go away whereas before I might have four or five in a row. Yeah so I thought that was really interesting but yeah and I think certainly the poor sleep was was something that I had for

pretty much most of my 50s, but I think too because I’d gotten back into, I was very physically busy, went in terms of my fitness work and also my own training and three nights a week I wasn’t getting into bed till about half past nine after.

you know, teaching classes and stuff and then coming home and having dinner and then hopping straight into bed. So whether that had something to do with it as well, I don’t know. Yeah, so it’s a bit hard to say if menopause has had any particular impact on, on.

ChristinaH (10:49.43)
on how my body’s been feeling at this stage in my life. What else? I’m just checking my notes. actually in the early stages of menopause, yeah, I was diagnosed as being severely anemic. So whether again that had flown on from my very, I always referred to it as low level restriction since my acute phase of.

anorexia back in the day. So whether that had something to do with that, I don’t know, but you know, that was medically addressed. And what else did I say? yeah, I did try the HRT, go down the HRT path for a very short period of time because that just gave me chronic vaginal thrush. And I just thought, well, what’s worse? As soon as I went off the HRT, the vaginal thrush stopped. And another

I was just thinking about another symptom that I had through menopause was vaginal dryness. And I don’t know whether this has coincided with my recovery or not, but that’s gone, which is really nice. I don’t have that anymore. I know, I feel really lucky. And of course,

Victoria Kleinsman (11:57.83)
Yeah!

Susan Horky (12:01.14)
I have to say I’m jealous.

Victoria Kleinsman (12:03.282)
Yeah.

Susan Horky (12:08.27)
ChristinaH (12:11.414)
And I don’t know, this isn’t obviously related to menopause, but I would say a lot of women, probably the majority of women who have suffered from an eating disorder at some stage in their lives will be diagnosed with at least osteopenia, if not osteoporosis, which both Susan and I have.

Victoria Kleinsman (12:29.096)
Yeah. Due to the eating disorder, the lack of nutrition.

ChristinaH (12:35.94)
Correct, which I only found out from my GP 18 months ago. Because I could not believe with the exercise that I had done over the years, all the strength work I’d done, the impact stuff, that I could possibly have osteoporosis. And she asked the question, she said, did you ever have an eating disorder? I just, yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (12:57.672)
There it is, yeah, it affects you later down the line. And just a bit for me to add in here before I Susie, because I’ve not obviously been through menopause yet, but in terms of the thinking that it won’t affect you further along the line, I used to be obsessed with exercise, over-exercising, and now at 38, yes, I’ve recently given birth, but my body is showing signs of like overuse because I did overuse it. And so I’m really taking time to kind of…

Grieve the part of me that wishes she could go back and actually not over exercise like every day for like however many years and take care of my knees and my joints but what’s done is done and I was that person who was like, nah, none of that will happen to me. None of that will happen to me. That’s stuff you read about. But shit happens. So take care of yourself now when you can.

ChristinaH (13:29.433)
Yeah.

ChristinaH (13:37.251)
Yes.

ChristinaH (13:41.259)
Bye.

Susan Horky (13:49.644)
Yeah, shall I go or are you done? But I would definitely second that because my osteoporosis started very young and I’ve been on every medication known to humanity. The good news is that with some of the newer medications and

Victoria Kleinsman (13:52.552)
Please, please, please, please, please,

Victoria Kleinsman (14:03.314)
Hmm.

Susan Horky (14:09.422)
normalizing my diet, I’ve kind of gone from pretty bad osteoporosis into osteopenia. So that there is hope. I mean, and I had sort of had this illusion that bones didn’t build after an early age. I don’t know what I thought. I had all sorts of weird theories. so as a result, I didn’t really think that improving my intake would help my osteoporosis, but it really did. And I, so.

I did not have a huge number of menopausal symptoms in general. had night sweats, but I didn’t have a lot of hot flashes, if any, during the day. But like Christina, I would say, I don’t even know if it’s a hot flash, but I would say that, you know, I used to always be cold across the board. No matter what, I was chilled to the bone. And in the past, probably,

I don’t know. I mean, I’ve been in recovery two years, but probably it’s been the last year. Every once in a while, I’ll be not only warm, but unduly warm. And then it’ll, it’ll switch off. So I don’t know what happens to one’s hormones when one, know, between menopause and an eating disorder, I’m not quite sure what happens. But I, and I did not do the HRT mostly because of that misleading women’s study that made it look like it was dangerous.

Victoria Kleinsman (15:21.255)
Thank

Susan Horky (15:36.338)
But I seem to have had a reasonable time with menopause, which was fortunate. I probably didn’t have any hormones to… I I was probably so undernourished that there was nothing to change.

Victoria Kleinsman (15:47.528)
you

That’s the thing, that’s the only thing I would say to you and Christina about the random sweats now. It could just be your metabolism fired up and working well, or it could be because now you’re actually eating fats. Obviously, hormones cannot operate, function well without fats. So because you’re actually eating fats now, it could be something hormonally that’s actually be able to work now because you’re actually nourishing yourself with healthy fats, perhaps.

Susan Horky (16:01.036)
Yes.

ChristinaH (16:19.896)
That makes sense. Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (16:20.36)
Yeah. Okay, so puberty in early ED then. this is to whoever just answered first last time. can’t remember already. Whoever didn’t answer. When you were in the thick of anorexia as young women, what were your experiences with puberty? And I guess, if you’re asking a similar sort of question around hormonal emotional shifts.

Susan Horky (16:21.196)
That seems logical, yeah.

ChristinaH (16:32.523)
Susan’s turn.

Susan Horky (16:46.648)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (16:47.196)
And then the second part of this is beyond period last, were there any other memorable body changes or emotional impacts during this time.

Susan Horky (16:55.918)
Okay, so I should go. So I was acutely anorexic after puberty, so I was 19. I will say that during puberty, and who knows how other people feel about this, all I felt was fat. I mean, I just felt, you know, it was like my, I mean, I’d felt plump, and I really wasn’t. You know, I look at pictures and I was not neither plump nor fat, but I felt fat. So what I didn’t like was feeling…

quote fat. When I began to restrict, think I then, does a, for me anyway, I sort of channeled any self-esteem into being thin. Like that was just the only thing I could think about. And then also I think it does, for me anyway, it flattened my feelings. So I didn’t have a lot of emotional swings because

Victoria Kleinsman (17:44.114)
Mm-hmm.

Susan Horky (17:54.414)
I think you suppress your, or at least I did suppress my emotions at the same time that I was suppressing my weight or that I was very focused on eating, so a lot of other stuff just went by the wayside. So yes, I don’t have a very satisfactory answer to that question.

Victoria Kleinsman (18:14.97)
And what about you Christina in terms of, and then I’ll share my experience, when did the 18th year sort of start for you? Was it linked to puberty do you think for you?

ChristinaH (18:24.868)
Absolutely not. was a very small child and I didn’t actually hit puberty till I was 16 and a half. That’s when my first period started. So I still have old school friends. I’d moved to a new school the year I turned 15 and they said to me many years later, they said,

When you first turned up, we thought you were a 10 year old child prodigy. So I was literally, wasn’t even five feet tall. I’m five foot, well, I’m not anymore, but I used to be five foot six. I grew six inches in a year, but that first year they thought I was 10 years old. And so my thing was always, I was always.

the smallest kid or the second smallest kid in the class in all the school photos. And I always felt quite different from that perspective because I was so small. So my period started and I was absolutely overjoyed. But I think given that I was so small, was very sporadic for the next couple of years. And my anorexia didn’t start till I was 19. And I was just thinking about it the other day after Kenyon had asked that question and thinking.

What triggered my anorexia was a comment from my father saying I was getting a bit beefy in the thighs and then my grandmother corroborating it. And I realise now that that was my body going through puberty at 19, actually gaining female weight. And yeah, and that’s what triggered it for me. So yeah, in terms of Susan, can…

Susan Horky (19:50.414)
Exactly.

ChristinaH (19:56.97)
I can say again, there was no sort of hormonal swings or anything like that. kind of went straight from, know, I’d probably had maybe 10, 10 periods before I went into anorexia. And after that first, that first period after I’d started dieting, I didn’t get them back. So yeah, so that was my experience.

Victoria Kleinsman (20:18.108)
Well, with my experience, I started puberty young at the age of nine. And that did have an impact on my anorexia. So being so young and my body changing and me getting breasts and my mom kind of, she was doing it because she thought it was helping, but she would say things like, look at you with like your big boobs. And I’ll be like, kind of like, my God, please just like, what are these and why have I got hair everywhere and what’s happening? I was like nine. And I felt…

Susan Horky (20:46.52)
That’s so young.

Victoria Kleinsman (20:47.824)
Yeah, I felt so like alienated compared to all the other girls my age. So although she was trying to make it into a positive thing, it was too much. So I just wanted to just be like this. So that’s when I actually started.

ChristinaH (20:48.068)
So yeah.

ChristinaH (20:59.624)
and creating that intense awareness of your body so early. That’s, yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (21:07.28)
Yeah. And also I had an awareness sexually around that time because my mum would make comments not… They were inappropriate and it wasn’t on purpose but it was like, you… The boys will be looking at you. It was that kind of stuff. And I was like frigging nine years old. So I wanted to just be small and be a little girl and have none of this sexualisation of men looking at me. So I started restricting and I would say it was due to the pressure.

of my body changing and the hormonal changes that were going on as puberty was starting. It was just too much and my parents were kind of breaking up and getting back together and then my grandma died and a whole load of things happened and restriction helped until it doesn’t help. I’m not promoting restriction by the way.

ChristinaH (21:51.364)
It was just safety. No, no.

Susan Horky (21:55.279)
Right, right, you think in the moment that it does.

Victoria Kleinsman (21:58.908)
Yeah, and like Christina said, was safe to me and it helped me numb and be small. And also when I was sick, people would take care of me and that’s all I ever wanted as well. So mine was, I think, onset from early puberty.

ChristinaH (22:12.76)
Yeah, wow. But I think that’s it. That’s sort of set for your, I mean, so much trauma all at once. Plus, you know, what’s happening to your body. The only thing you could do was control what you ate and that gave you your anchor.

Susan Horky (22:19.82)
Right. Right.

Victoria Kleinsman (22:26.62)
Yeah.

Susan Horky (22:28.654)
And it is interesting, like the different reasons, like you wanted to be like a little girl and just not have to face that horizon yet. I was at an age where I wanted to be attractive to boys, but felt I totally wasn’t. So it’s just kind of an interesting, different twist on the same theme.

ChristinaH (22:41.156)
next

ChristinaH (22:44.537)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (22:47.516)
Yeah, it really is. And the way that people say such innocent things and they can have such a big effect on us when we internalise things. Even down to the dinner ladies at primary school. So you’d have go and have your dinner and the dinner ladies will go, look at you with your blonde hair and your dark eyelashes. you’re going to be a heartbreaker. And like, it was very innocently said, but guess what I turned out to be? A heartbreaker. Because I was told over and over again that my look…

ChristinaH (23:06.299)
God.

ChristinaH (23:12.036)
Mmm.

Susan Horky (23:16.846)
That’s what was going to happen.

Victoria Kleinsman (23:18.344)
And my looks are important. Everything was about how pretty I was or how my body looks. So was like, oh, well, this must be really important in life to make sure you’re pretty and you have a good body. So then it was my number one goal in life to be pretty and be as thin as possible. And then 20 years later, I was like, fuck this, no.

ChristinaH (23:35.001)
Yeah.

you

Susan Horky (23:38.766)
Exactly, it’s not a good thing.

Victoria Kleinsman (23:43.2)
Yeah, exactly that. So, okay, being part of the club, this is a big one. I know you’ve already had the question, so you know what’s coming. Can you share more about the experience of feeling superior due to having an eating disorder and due to being thin?

ChristinaH (23:58.872)
Hmm, what did I say?

Yeah, I think once the anorexia started and I had control over what I was eating and in terms of the exercise and everything, just…

Oh yeah, once I got over the intense stage of anorexia and I’d gained some weight back to a certain size, which when I think back now is obviously a size smaller than I should ever have been. Because when I had gained that weight when I was saying when I was back at the age of 19 and the comments made by my family members that I was getting bigger, that was…

when I look back now, it’s very similar to the size I am now. But I had always in my mind, I’ve got to be this size. It’s just, yeah, this arbitrary number. And also there was a comparisons at home about, know, when your mother was your age, she had a 23 inch waist and all that sort of stuff. And actually one time I remember in my anorexia phase, dad said,

you’ll never fit into your mother’s wedding dress. And so I tried my mom’s wedding dress on and I did, but of course I had no boobs. She had boobs back in those days. I had no boobs, just this waist. And my mother just didn’t say a word. know, she just, was, it was just this blankness. It was almost like she was jealous. It was the weirdest thing. I didn’t, I didn’t mean to talk about this. It just popped up, but yeah, it was sort of.

ChristinaH (25:44.106)
God. And then I was thinking, maybe that’s how small I need to stay, which of course I couldn’t sustain that intensity. I’ve gone right off track here, haven’t I? But yeah, back to feeling, okay, I can’t ever be as big as I was when I started the anorexia again. So I picked this number and I stayed that number until my recovery. And that was the pressure to

sustain that weight all those years. And yeah, and that sort of came back to that feeling of superior, you know, because I was able to do it. You know, I was able to be the one that stayed the same size after they’d had their babies and all that sort of stuff. And, but then there’s that pressure to sustain it as well through, as I’ve said before, low level restriction, but you know, counterbalancing that with exercise.

Victoria Kleinsman (26:44.36)
And I think it kind of brings a sense of safety feeling if we’re, and I’ll obviously let Suzie share her experience in a moment, but I remember feeling superior. And if we look at feeling superior, it’s just an attempt to compensate for feeling inferior, which is exactly what we felt. Yeah, so it’s not true superiority. It’s…

ChristinaH (27:03.808)
Absolutely! Yes!

Victoria Kleinsman (27:11.546)
A compensation for feeling so much shame and not good enough and never enough and wanting to be perfect, anything that made us feel that we could do something that others couldn’t and society is trying to get everyone to do because that’s the best way to live apparently, it creates a false sense of safety in the world.

ChristinaH (27:31.428)
That’s exactly right. actually I’ll just, before I let Susan have a chat, one other thing that I realised going through recovery with all of this was, you know, obviously people would say, oh, you know, it’s amazing. You’ve got such strong will, such great self-discipline. How do you stay the same? How do you look so good? How do you stay so toned and thin and blah, blah?

And that was me feeding off and I had to keep doing that because that was where I was getting my sense of the validation from for my own sense of worth because I had none from the inside. You know, it was all external validation. Yeah. And, know, if people didn’t say that for a while, I’d sort of say, I mustn’t be doing enough work. I mustn’t be being disciplined enough or, you know, whatever.

Susan Horky (28:21.746)
And that’s, and I would say very much the same, that it was, it was the one, the one thing I felt that I was good at, you know, I mean, a terrible thing to be good at, but, but, and I would sort of carry it with me if I had to go into a social occasion or a meeting at work, it was somehow, well, at least, you know, at least I’m thin, so that’ll be.

ChristinaH (28:32.088)
Peace! Yes.

Susan Horky (28:47.17)
That’ll be a plus. And I think I also sort of almost projected onto the world that they would think I was smart and capable. I mean, I’m not unsmartered, I’m not incapable. So I probably just did my thing, but my explanation to myself was, well, they think I’m smart and capable because I’m thin. And I would say, you know, it’s a weird mind trick that one does. And then I think, and Christine and I have talked about this too, that

ChristinaH (28:57.25)
I don’t know.

ChristinaH (29:05.709)
Yes.

Susan Horky (29:17.698)
there was both a knowing and a not knowing. Like Christina, I was in what I would call partial recovery for the vast majority. In other words, I was only acutely anorexic for a couple of years. But then I was restricting and keeping myself clearly at what was below my set point. And I was proud of that, very proud of that. And plus I really did.

I mean, I really did feel, because I didn’t know about diet culture, I really did think, I’m doing all the things that you’re supposed to do. You know, I park far from work and get those extra steps and I, you know, I get up early and I run. Those were all considered good things. But at some level also, I knew, you know, it’s like if I turned down, you know, somebody made a nice cake at work and I had the strawberries and didn’t taste the cake, you know, I sort of knew.

This is a little weird, because to other people I look thin and yet I’m not eating. You know, so there was a dual awareness. So the superiority felt good and most of the time that’s what carried me. But I was also sort of aware that there was something a little off.

ChristinaH (30:32.951)
you

ChristinaH (30:36.814)
Yeah, just on that, you you said that the strawberry and the cake, my situation was a little bit different to that because yeah, internally I knew something was off, but I would still have a bit of the cake. I wouldn’t have all of the cake. I’d have a bit of the cake, but then I’d punish myself at home. So to the external world, know, Christina’s really lucky. She can eat cake and stay thin. But yeah, they didn’t know what went on behind the scenes. Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (30:37.49)
So you’re.

Susan Horky (30:55.927)
Yeah.

Susan Horky (30:59.926)
You were looking normal. Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (31:09.34)
That’s often the case, and I was gonna say with Susie, knowing something was quite off-kilter, your unconscious knew that what you were doing wasn’t right. And I want to just speak to something a bit deeper around superiority in eating disorders and even in diet culture, where people are like, I’ve been good today because I said no to the cake and all this bollocks, right?

What, if we think at what this means, so let’s like dive into the, okay, the superiority of I’m good at restriction. What I see is now I’ve done the real work is what we’re saying then is I’m really good at restricting who I am, restricting my desires, being a puppet to diet culture and society. So when you actually take a look at what you are being good at,

Susan Horky (31:53.13)
Exactly.

Victoria Kleinsman (31:58.468)
Is that something you actually want to be good at? Because you’re contributing to your own oppression and the oppression of every other woman and man on the planet who’s also a victim to diet culture.

ChristinaH (32:06.542)
lately.

Susan Horky (32:08.096)
It’s really true and you’re sort of erasing yourself, you know, for the good of society, but that’s not the good of society. Yeah. No, it’s really very true.

ChristinaH (32:11.8)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (32:15.888)
Okay.

ChristinaH (32:17.002)
is so true. I could not have said that any better myself. That was just a perfect description, Victoria. Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (32:20.444)
Yeah.

Susan Horky (32:26.198)
Yeah, yeah, it really is. And you know, just one little, this is a parentheses of something I just wanted to make sure to say, I really feel as though, I mean, there are people with, you know, actual serious eating disorders, but I really feel as though most women in our society, mean, unless they have been so fortunate as to grow up feeling confident and just,

not think about their bodies that much. I just don’t think there are many women who aren’t restricting, who aren’t suppressing their natural body weight and who don’t know. I mean, I feel like if nothing else, the fact that I had anorexia allowed me to learn that there’s a whole alternative, that there’s a whole other way of experiencing the world. And for so many of these women, if it’s just like, you know, kind of partial…

restricting, they’ll never, they may never know this freedom, which is why I hope people will listen to these podcasts.

ChristinaH (33:26.692)
That’s exactly right, Susan. You’re just thinking back, and you’ve asked this question before, Victoria, think back to a time where you were not even really conscious of your body, you’re just living your life and doing your thing. And that’s exactly where I was until the age of 19 when the anorexia started. So I was really fortunate compared to a lot of people that I even got to that point of having that.

Victoria Kleinsman (33:28.442)
A thousand. Yeah.

ChristinaH (33:55.426)
being comfortable in yourself and you know not but ever since then and and to a degree still now and I and it’s definitely lessened but it’s what I refer to as an acute awareness of my body. I’m always acutely aware of of how it feels in clothes or how it moves and all that sort of stuff and and it’s and that’s been created by diet culture you know because we’re constantly being reminded of

our bodies and how they should look and what we need to do to make them look a certain way.

Victoria Kleinsman (34:28.988)
Yeah, whereas actually, if diet culture was never invented, believe it or not, we would actually not be objectifying ourselves and others, we would just be living and having a body. It wouldn’t be a thing.

ChristinaH (34:41.496)
That’s That’s exactly right.

Susan Horky (34:44.418)
Well, you know, and one of the things that I’ve noticed in recovery, and I think I was gonna include this in an answer to a later question, but I feel like much more frequently I live inside my body. Like I always watched myself, you did I look right for this environment? now I often…

ChristinaH (35:03.395)
Yes.

Susan Horky (35:06.262)
I’m not, it’s like I’m living, it’s like being in a tower looking out. I’m not looking at the tower, I’m looking out. And so it is, it’s a great relief.

Victoria Kleinsman (35:16.006)
Yeah, that’s beautiful. And there’s something I want to share that I put in our private group. So you will have both read this and I’m not going to read the whole thing because it’s too long. But Glennon Doyle recently talked about her readouts into Anamlexia. And I want to just read the last part because we’re talking about diet culture and feeling superior and everything. before I read, I’m not going to read the whole thing, but just some context.

ChristinaH (35:17.636)
Mmm.

ChristinaH (35:26.679)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (35:39.89)
to our listeners, someone was praising Glennon Doyle for being so thin and she was in an anorexia relapse. So she said to this person who was praising her, I haven’t got a secret. I’ve got a very serious mental illness called anorexia. I’m this skinny, not because I’m amazing, but because I’m sick. I’m telling you, because one of the many things that made me sick is a message we shove down kids and women’s throats that the smaller we are, the more amazing we are. That to be and look half dead is the ultimate female achievement.

I really don’t want my body to be used to further that toxic message. And you know what? I no longer see starving, over-sculpt, over-disciplined bodies as ideal bodies at all, just not at all. I think we might be beyond that. I’m most impressed and awed by bodies that belong to a woman who doesn’t appear to deprive herself of anything good, not deliciousness, not satiety, not ease, not rest, not joy.

Show me the body of a woman who feeds herself, who rests herself, who allows herself to take up space on this earth, who cares more about how she feels than how she looks, who appears to be spending her one wild and precious life not disciplining herself, but enjoying herself. That’s the ideal body. That’s an amazing body. She was quiet and she said, wow, thank you for sharing. And I literally feel like I’m gonna cry reading that.

Susan Horky (37:03.298)
Yeah, it’s so powerful, it’s so true.

ChristinaH (37:03.857)
I’m dying. Yep. Heart breaking. Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (37:07.72)
Thank you, I enjoy your fish.

Susan Horky (37:11.712)
Yes, for sharing that. How brave. And particularly in the midst of a relapse when you’re still struggling.

ChristinaH (37:17.108)
I know. Yeah, that’s that when when I read that to be that in tune with how she was feeling to be able to articulate it like that was extraordinary. Yeah, in in the thick of a relapse. Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (37:19.41)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (37:29.149)
Yeah.

And I’m actually been reading that every day since I shared it because it just gets me because of the work I do and how I used to feel and the work I want to do to empower women, to empower themselves and just stop fucking about with restricting who they are. It’s more than the body. It’s more than the food. It’s who the fuck we are in the world.

ChristinaH (37:38.126)
Mm.

ChristinaH (37:50.573)
it.

Susan Horky (37:52.846)
It’s so true and the body is sort of irrelevant, you know? mean, it gets us where we need to be, but it’s…

ChristinaH (37:53.081)
That’s it.

ChristinaH (37:59.874)
That’s right. It’s just like, you’re in it. It’s a car. It’s our vehicle for moving around. Yeah.

Susan Horky (38:04.086)
Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (38:06.322)
Yeah, true that. All right, ladies. So the next one, part of being in the club. Can I ask this? I’ll ask the three questions and then answer however you will, because you’re probably all connected anyway. Obviously, you know the questions, but our listeners don’t yet. So how did that affect being part of the club, being superior? How did it affect your sense of belonging and connection with others? What does being part of the club mean to you now in recovery? Great question.

Susan Horky (38:16.171)
Okay.

Victoria Kleinsman (38:33.382)
And how does this reframe help on hard body image days during recovery?

Susan Horky (38:40.478)
Okay, so my turn to go first, I guess. Is that right? So.

Victoria Kleinsman (38:43.036)
I think so. Yeah.

ChristinaH (38:43.096)
Yeah. Yeah.

Susan Horky (38:50.082)
the part that really stands out to me in those questions. So when I was thin, I really didn’t genuinely feel part of the club. I sort of thought I felt part of the club because I was thin and looked the way you’re supposed to thin, but there was all, that kind of kept me apart in some way. And you know, people would talk about,

ChristinaH (39:06.904)
Yes.

Susan Horky (39:11.596)
you know, you’re so good, you didn’t have the cookie or whatever. And it was like, well, you don’t really know me. mean, like, that’s what you see, but it’s a very different story inside. So one of the really nice things about gaining weight, which does help on bad body image days, is that I just, I feel like a normal…

older woman, you know? I so I do think this is something that may be a tiny bit easier when you’re older, because you know, if I was 20, then there would be some naturally thin people around me and that could be harder. But at almost 70, most everybody has gone through menopause, has extra weight, and when I see somebody who doesn’t, I seriously believe that either they are

you know, they have some illness or that they’re restricting in some fashion. And so it is really nice to go out to eat or whatever and just not even think about it because, you know, I’m in the same world as somebody else. I mean, I think it’s akin, it is having a secret. You know, if you have some secret that you’re keeping, then no matter how much you might engage with people and you may engage quite a bit, but there’s always some part of yourself that you’re keeping back.

ChristinaH (40:32.964)
Exactly.

Susan Horky (40:33.442)
And then your body sort of shows like, I’m just like a regular person. that actually, at this stage of life, that feels very good. think recovering in older age has a lot of, there’s pluses and minuses, but I think one of the pluses is that, I wish I didn’t even look or compare or notice at all. And I try not to, but occasionally I do, but it’s usually a comfort.

It’s usually like, oh yeah, well we’re all in this together. So I think that answers what I can answer.

ChristinaH (41:07.524)
Yeah.

That’s really a great answer, Susan. And I completely agree with everything you said in terms of where we are now. Every now and then I kind of, look and I’m surprised. think, I look like…

other women my age. I, know, looking back and that question really got me thinking because I feel a bit sad now because of all those years where even though wasn’t acutely anorexic, I was restricting and I’ve always felt…

Like you said Susan, I’ve held a part of me back It’s it’s been this secret that I’ve had that I wasn’t even aware really was a secret But I’ve I’ve never had a girlfriend I’ve felt really really close to that. I’ve been able to talk to anybody until you Until you ladies, you know, seriously, it wasn’t Yeah, I told you stuff and I’ve never told another soul and that I kind of

Susan Horky (42:00.214)
Likewise, completely. Nobody knew. Nobody.

ChristinaH (42:09.89)
Yeah, I guess I’m grieved that I’ve never had that sort of close relationship with anybody. I’ve got some really lovely friends, but yeah, that’s something that I think is, I would say a lot of women who have had eating disorders over the years would have experienced that as well because it’s an enormous part of your psyche and yourself that you’re not sharing with anybody because you know it’s your secret. And then the work you’ve got to do to

portray that you are normal to the outside world. So, you know, you’ll put yourself through the agony of eating that thing that you know you shouldn’t because it’s naughty, but you want to look like everybody else, but then you’ll go, you’ll go home and you’ll punish yourself with exercise or you’ll restrict for the next week or, you know, all those sorts of things. And I just think that’s, that’s, you know, your social connection is such an important part of your life.

And I think for lot of us who’ve been through an eating disorder, there’s a bit of a black area in that. Hmm. Which is sad. Yeah. And I do find now I’m starting to tell some of my friends about the fact that I had an eating disorder. Some of just look at me in total disbelief, you know, because I’m not a walking skeleton. And then others…

Victoria Kleinsman (43:17.468)
definitely and it’s sad.

Victoria Kleinsman (43:33.66)
No. No.

ChristinaH (43:37.43)
are uncomfortable to talk about it so they don’t want to talk about it at all. And then others are really empathetic but you can just tell that they just don’t get it. They don’t understand how you could get to this age and still have that mental situation going on in your head and what you’re doing to try and control it.

Victoria Kleinsman (44:00.326)
Yeah and isn’t it interesting that… Sorry Susie, did you want to say something?

ChristinaH (44:00.43)
So, yeah.

Susan Horky (44:05.646)
was just going to say, think that’s something that people, even people who are just dieting may not quite get is that it becomes such a mental, it consumes you mentally. somebody could just sort of say, I’m just, I, you know, I’m not like that. I just diet, but I don’t know because I think as long as you have the fear and the anxiety about gaining weight, it becomes all consuming.

ChristinaH (44:17.763)
Absolutely.

ChristinaH (44:32.728)
That’s for sure.

Victoria Kleinsman (44:34.243)
Yeah. Yeah. And it’s classed as normal, unfortunately. But what I was going to say about being part of the club, it’s interesting that we spoke earlier about feeling superior and part of the club, but actually we could be part of the club and only connect surface level because we couldn’t go deep because we weren’t deep within ourselves, we weren’t even being ourselves. Yet we could only be part of the club if we were the thinnest. Did you use to scan the room? Or even you was?

ChristinaH (44:37.859)
Mm.

ChristinaH (44:54.777)
That’s it.

ChristinaH (44:59.118)
That’s wrong.

Victoria Kleinsman (45:02.212)
scanner, I’m either thinnest, I’m either thinnest, I’m the thinnest. It’s all good, I can relax.

ChristinaH (45:04.297)
You

Susan Horky (45:07.822)
And you know, I can still, this is really embarrassing, but I can still remember going into a department store and there was a woman who swept in and she was dressed all in black and she was really skin, I mean, I was skinny but she was really skinny. But it was like, still remember because it was sort of like, maybe I, you know, how did she do that? You know, maybe I should be like that. Isn’t that awful?

ChristinaH (45:27.554)
Yes! Yes!

Victoria Kleinsman (45:31.28)
Like how dare someone be thinner than me? I’m trying so hard and I’m restricting so hard, how dare someone be thinner than me? Yeah, so this club isn’t connection at all, but when you’re and during recovery, like you two have the most beautiful connection now, you’re able to actually connect on a true, meaningful, deep level because you actually connect with yourself. So recovery.

ChristinaH (45:45.092)
No.

ChristinaH (45:59.491)
Yes.

Susan Horky (45:59.758)
Take this.

Victoria Kleinsman (46:01.336)
opens up connection, true connections and true friendships.

Susan Horky (46:06.03)
I think that’s really true. I think, you for me, the one big piece that I just wouldn’t want to deal with was all my insecurities, because I felt I’d had them all my life. And I just, it was like, this was the antidote, was if I was thin, then I didn’t have to have insecurities. But of course, they’re still there. But it’s so much more real to connect with somebody when you can acknowledge your insecurities. So you’re right.

Victoria Kleinsman (46:15.72)
Mm-hmm.

ChristinaH (46:31.096)
That’s it.

Yeah, because I mean, we’re working so hard on being perfect all the time, you being that person that other people aspire to be, but you’re just not connecting with yourself. You’re not being truly yourself. And that’s, you know, that’s what I’m loving about now that I can just be authentically me and happy to accept.

Victoria Kleinsman (46:35.058)
Yeah, by 1000.

ChristinaH (47:00.258)
that people will either like that or they won’t and not feel I have to be liked by everybody.

Victoria Kleinsman (47:06.024)
That’s a big one. To be authentically you and not need to be liked by everybody. That’s freedom. That is freedom. Yeah. And then the last two questions, but before I ask those to you, the other lady asked about the body image. All I will say in terms of bad body image days, read that Glennon Doyle quote. In fact, it’s a long one, but I’ll copy and paste it under these show notes, what she wrote, because I didn’t read all of it.

ChristinaH (47:09.508)
Mmm.

ChristinaH (47:14.05)
Yeah, that’s for sure.

ChristinaH (47:28.281)
Mmm.

ChristinaH (47:33.444)
Oh, it’s for with me.

Victoria Kleinsman (47:36.518)
Read that and you’ll be back straight to being the authentic version of you. That’s what I feel. Okay, so these two questions are from the lovely Gail from Instagram and she says, thanks for coming back to me. Can you ask them how they coped with weight gain, please? I’ve been trying to recover for three years now, all the word trying, asking for permission to fail. I’ve been trying to recover for three years now, gained a lot of weight in the beginning and keep wanting to lose it again.

ChristinaH (47:41.198)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (48:05.39)
Also, did they or do they weigh themselves? I have a big scale addiction, thank you.

ChristinaH (48:10.914)
Right, so that was the bit, that’s my number one thing on my list of points that I was gonna say, get rid of the scales. Have a ceremonial scale smashing exercise Gail, that’s what I reckon you should do. Cause I had a set of scales which interestingly had been broken, but I could not bring my, I mean, I couldn’t weigh myself with them anymore, but I could not.

bring myself to get rid of them because they’re such an integral part of my life. But yeah, you’re not going to get anywhere unless you get rid of them and you’re no longer aware of what you actually weigh because as soon as you know, you’ve got that number in your mind and if you go over that number then yeah, just get rid of the scales. And then as far as the gaining weight is concerned, I think just coming to that point of accepting that

and that it’s worse at the beginning than as time goes on, but accepting that it’s going to be horrible, accepting that you’re going to feel different to the way you have felt for, well, for a lot of us, our entire lives. You feel different in space, your clothes feel different. And then as far as the clothes side of things is concerned, don’t keep anything that feels firm or tight.

Don’t try to put it back on again. Just get it out of your house. I think I remember you saying on a podcast a couple of weeks ago, Victoria, about, you know, just wearing things like bike pants and tights and maybe a couple of sizes too big, you know, and they just sort of sit snug snugly but comfortably on your on your body. And what I kind of like wearing these days is is tights and bigger, looser tops. I used to always wear really close fitting.

Victoria Kleinsman (49:33.318)
Mm-hmm.

ChristinaH (49:59.372)
clothes so that everybody would say look how slim she is and you know she looks so so trim and lovely but now of course I if I tried to wear those sorts of things I’ve got little lumps and bumps all over the place so something that’s it can be quite slimline but just straight and down so it’s not tucked in it’s not pushed up against your body and you feel and then you’re not so aware of your clothes anymore you’re just wearing clothes because you have to wear them to

be out in public. Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (50:30.856)
Or not if you go and live somewhere where everyone’s naked all the time.

you

ChristinaH (50:38.028)
But then if you do that, you’ve got to always make sure you wear your sun safe and wear a hat. I once came across with my then eight year old son, we were staying on holiday somewhere at a beachy place and he climbed over a hill and he said, he came rushing back and he said, oh mummy, look, all these people have no clothes on. And I said, oh.

Victoria Kleinsman (50:44.072)
Indeed.

ChristinaH (51:03.649)
over the hill and they all had no clothes on but they all had hats on.

Susan Horky (51:06.221)
I had to.

great. What a great… but it’s good. It’s good.

ChristinaH (51:12.296)
That was off topic.

Victoria Kleinsman (51:13.618)
as you did.

It’s good. How did you cope with weight gain, Suzy?

Susan Horky (51:21.903)
boy, everything that Christina has said, I mean, I…

Susan Horky (51:30.85)
I knew in my head that I was gonna have to gain weight if I was gonna go through this process. So I sort of was prepared, but it still didn’t feel, it felt terrible. But I think what’s happened over time, and I’m now two years in and I probably reached my set point a year and a half ago, is A,

Victoria Kleinsman (51:36.104)
me.

ChristinaH (51:41.156)
Mm.

Susan Horky (51:54.4)
I’ve sort of forgotten what I used to look like, so I don’t expect that every time I look in the mirror. that’s that, I mean, it takes a long time not to expect your thin self in the mirror. But that over time, then I would say there are some days where I feel like, OK, I look OK. But the other piece of it is I don’t care as much. mean, so even if I look and I say, know, rolls or width or padding or whatever it is that I see,

Victoria Kleinsman (51:57.701)
you

ChristinaH (52:01.186)
Yes, it does.

Susan Horky (52:23.858)
it’s like, okay, well, that’s who I am now. And then I go on with my day and it’s not like, you know, this hangs over me and I have to change my behavior. And I think if you’re really, I mean, I really believe in the idea of kind of rewiring. And I really believe that if you do anything that tells your brain that weight gain is bad, it’s going to keep you from rewiring.

or at least it’s gonna slow the process. so, so going back to dieting, weighing yourself, worrying about how you look, I mean, obviously the worrying about how you look is hard not to do sometimes, but if you can just switch yourself off, I heard something somewhere about having a little catchphrase that you can just say to yourself, you know, like, I’m fine, or I look okay, or.

ChristinaH (52:53.358)
That’s for sure.

ChristinaH (53:07.726)
Yeah.

Susan Horky (53:20.684)
It’s not about my appearance or, you know, some little catchphrase. And if you find yourself starting to perseverate, you just say that and try and switch. But it’s, it is a very hard process, but I think I know this sounds, it’s hard, much easier said than done, but you sort of have to really commit to the whole process. I mean, you have to say, if I’m going to do this, I’m going to go through with the whole thing. I mean,

ChristinaH (53:29.572)
Hmm.

ChristinaH (53:44.248)
That’s it.

ChristinaH (53:49.058)
Yeah.

Susan Horky (53:50.624)
Yeah, so, but it is, it is hard. A lot of support helps.

ChristinaH (53:55.65)
Yeah and I think and taking that word try out of your vocabulary it just it doesn’t work. know like you said trying is giving you permission to fail and the other thing that I found

Susan Horky (54:08.994)
Yeah.

ChristinaH (54:10.528)
when I first started gaining the weight, I would a lot of times look at photos of myself before I gained the weight and I’d just say, gee, that’s what I used to look like. You know, you have to go through a grieving process, I think, loss of that body that you’d worked so hard to maintain for so long. Yeah, so you gotta stop doing that as well. You gotta stop looking at old photos of yourself.

Victoria Kleinsman (54:38.777)
Yeah. wow. There’s some great tips from you ladies. And I want to say something, bring something up that Suzy said that so that was this was key for me. When you said when I was looking in the mirror, I no longer expected to see the thinner version of me. Because when you look in the mirror and you’re hoping to see something that you know is not there because you’ve gained weight, you’re fucking yourself over and you’re keeping yourself stock.

ChristinaH (54:54.916)
and

ChristinaH (55:06.104)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (55:06.716)
Whereas if you, I love what you ladies have said, let me try and break it down like in terms of bullet points. Go all in. There’s no try. I am so done with this eating disorder, I’m going all in. I want freedom, whatever it takes. My mantra, Susie, was two, two of them, whatever it fucking takes. And then when I had a bad Bonnie image day, I’ll be like, who cares? I mean, I cared, I did care, but my energetics of my…

ChristinaH (55:14.04)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (55:36.27)
shrugging my shoulders and me being like, who cares? It was like, I can no longer have any energy wasted on caring about what I look like again and again and again. I was done. Yeah.

ChristinaH (55:46.594)
Yeah, that’s right.

ChristinaH (55:50.59)
Yeah, just on that looking in the mirror thing, Susie and I have spoken about this as well. Because for so long that reflect, you know, for decades our reflection was that long lean silhouette. Yeah, it did take quite a while to reprogram to actually look in the mirror and think, that’s real. What I’m looking at is real. It’s not…

It’s not just a figment of my imagination and I think it also kind of ties into that body dysmorphia because for a long time, know, I’d say probably only in the last three, four months if I’m being really honest, what I’m seeing is actually what is there. So when I…

and I’m the same weight as I was, not same weight, I don’t know what I weigh, but the same size that I was four months ago, but four months ago when I looked at myself, I just looked so much bigger than I am now, but my clothes still fit the same. So I can’t be bigger than I was then, but mentally I still looked big compared to how I look now, for example. yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (56:52.232)
Mm.

ChristinaH (57:03.884)
looking that mirror is much more comfortable now and obviously you have to accept it because that’s what’s real. You have to accept what you see. Exactly.

Susan Horky (57:12.19)
That’s what’s there. The other thing is, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s a comfort for me. It’s been a comfort about my body that I did eventually settle at a set point. And yes, it’s a little higher than I would have liked, but, but

ChristinaH (57:25.443)
Yes!

Susan Horky (57:28.126)
it knew where it wanted to be. And then that proved to me that I was suppressing my weight all those years because when I stopped calorie counting, this is where I ended up. But it’s also like, this is kind of cool. My body, you know, people talk about focusing on what your body does for you, which I think can be helpful. And for me, it was like the sort of the magic that it it did stop. I mean, I didn’t become.

ChristinaH (57:30.148)
and

Susan Horky (57:51.47)
You know, it would have been alright if I’d been 500 pounds, but I didn’t. And so it’s like your body knows where it needs to be.

Victoria Kleinsman (57:59.302)
Yeah, so trusting that. Yeah, and acceptance. And I have a question to ask you ladies because I’ve got to go now. However, I want to leave you to and say, stay for us because this is still recording for the podcast. Stay for as long as you like and obviously answer the last question and speak to it will be a surprise for me as well. Speak to whatever you want. It’s depending if you have time or not and what you want to speak to that we’ve not covered. So.

ChristinaH (57:59.328)
It’s incredible.

Susan Horky (58:01.229)
Yeah.

Susan Horky (58:04.802)
Mm-hmm.

ChristinaH (58:27.78)
Okay.

Victoria Kleinsman (58:28.392)
If I am not going to end it just in case. Perfect. So I’m just going to go and leave you ladies to it at the end. If you both leave and this is on air, you know, I don’t edit things, but people know that about me. Raw and real is how it is. Leave your laptop open for a bit because I think something has to render after. This is my first time using Riverside as well. So do your thing, share your wisdom.

And listeners, I’ll see you on the other side next week and much love and thank you both of you for your time, by the way, today.

ChristinaH (59:02.372)
Yeah, thank you, Victoria. So just double checking. So we don’t press the leave button or we do press the leave button.

Susan Horky (59:03.488)
Thank you!

Susan Horky (59:10.177)
Julie.

Victoria Kleinsman (59:11.612)
I think you pressed the leave button, but then I think leave your browser open. Cause if you look at the bottom of your screen, what options do you have? Can you leave? And then that’s about it. You can’t stop the recording or anything like that.

ChristinaH (59:15.547)
right, okay.

Susan Horky (59:24.876)
Right, we don’t have that option.

ChristinaH (59:25.752)
Yeah, just the little red telephone to leave. Yeah, so we’ll just press that. Yeah. OK.

Susan Horky (59:30.21)
little snake leak.

Victoria Kleinsman (59:32.55)
Yeah, just press that and I’ll sort it out when I get back. Thank you, ladies. Enjoy. I’ll mute myself just in case you can hear any background noise or whatever. So much love to you both. Bye bye. Enjoy.

ChristinaH (59:35.136)
Awesome. Thanks, Zoe.

Susan Horky (59:35.136)
Okay, that’s a great idea! so good!

I’m sorry.

You too. Thank you. my gosh, what a riot. So.

ChristinaH (59:45.156)
Thanks Victoria. Bye.

ChristinaH (59:53.384)
boy. listen, can I ask you a question? So the next one on my list, this is still from Gail. How did you cope with, or how do you cope with diet culture everywhere?

Susan Horky (59:59.138)
Yes!

Okay.

Susan Horky (01:00:10.542)
I thought that was such a good question. For me, I did this, it was like going from swimming in the water to being on the land. I mean, it was two different realities. I was unaware of this concept of diet culture and I just thought that the health culture was what was right and true. So when I learned about…

ChristinaH (01:00:12.3)
I’m

ChristinaH (01:00:30.702)
Bye.

Susan Horky (01:00:34.658)
diet culture and the fact that it isn’t healthy to deprive your body, that weight is not as dangerous as everybody cracks it up to be and so forth and so on. I, I, and I don’t know that this happens for everybody, but I just made this complete switch where all of a sudden I was now immersed in non-diet culture. So now when I, mean, yes, in the beginning I would say it was, it was very hard still to see thin people or whatever, but now

ChristinaH (01:01:01.38)
Mmm.

Susan Horky (01:01:04.488)
I sort of, I feel like I’m sort of feel sorry for people who are in diet culture. Like I kind of feel like you’re torturing yourself or depriving yourself and it really isn’t worth it. And you think it’s a good thing, but it’s not. And then the other thing I would say being an older woman is, and now I can’t remember what this this is being an older woman.

ChristinaH (01:01:12.023)
Absolutely.

ChristinaH (01:01:17.006)
huh.

ChristinaH (01:01:29.476)
I’ve had a couple of those during this conversation.

Susan Horky (01:01:34.656)
I then this thing, it’s missing, but I gotta keep holding on to these ideas. unless, I really, I guess I said this before, but that I really do believe that most people my age who are thin are probably doing some sort of restriction. So I do kind of then, I mean, I don’t mean like pity or whatever, but I just think I’m glad that’s not me. And then when I notice somebody who’s very thin,

ChristinaH (01:01:39.69)
Bye.

Susan Horky (01:02:03.596)
and I think, I’d like that, then I also look and they’re usually about 25 years old. So, you know, it comes more naturally.

ChristinaH (01:02:08.58)
That’s it, I think that’s the thing. And I think for women our age who have been through an eating disorder, we still, because it started so early in our lives, I think we still sort of have that kind of mental comparison to a younger person’s body. Yeah.

Susan Horky (01:02:28.918)
Right, right, right. And the reality is, like, I’m an old lady. I mean, I don’t feel old, but I know. But, you know, I know if I were 30 looking at myself, I’d be like, why is she even worrying about her weight? She’s got wrinkles and, you know, arthritis. So it becomes… But I do think in the beginning, a lot of the things that Gail is asking about do…

ChristinaH (01:02:34.722)
You’re not an old lady.

ChristinaH (01:02:44.692)
Exactly. Yeah, that’s what I’m

Susan Horky (01:02:55.576)
come with time that they are harder in the beginning and they really do get better. accepting your body, to, you know, being around people in diet culture. And now I’m not quite brave enough, but I keep thinking if, you know, like a woman I was having lunch with the other day said something about, how she’d like to lose 15 pounds. And I almost…

ChristinaH (01:02:58.848)
show.

Susan Horky (01:03:22.092)
I almost sort of took it as a teachable moment and I almost sort of said, know, why or what would your goal be or, you know, have you thought about the fact that that just doesn’t matter? But I just, for a variety of reasons, I didn’t go there. But I do sort of feel like I wish more people could understand and not be so weight obsessed. The other thing I really feel is that,

ChristinaH (01:03:34.04)
Hmm.

Susan Horky (01:03:50.412)
the freedom from anxiety about getting, I was so worried about gaining weight. And then when you gain the weight, the worst is over. I mean, you know, the bad thing happened and it’s not so bad.

ChristinaH (01:03:55.182)
Yeah.

ChristinaH (01:03:58.916)
That’s exactly right. The only thing that has to happen, no that’s right, the only thing that has to happen is that you need to get some new clothes and is that such a bad thing? Yeah, that’s Exactly. One thing that I did find really useful as far as the diet culture stuff is concerned, and I wouldn’t have even thought about it had I not been involved with the body love binge.

Susan Horky (01:04:09.804)
Yes. Right. Right. Exactly. One good excuse to go shopping.

ChristinaH (01:04:27.51)
Susan, your screen just keeps freezing every now and then. I can still hear you perfectly well. Yeah, can you, yeah, you can hear me?

Susan Horky (01:04:34.779)
And actually, think that must be because I don’t freeze for myself, but you get blurry sometimes. So I think there’s probably in the…

ChristinaH (01:04:39.904)
yeah. Must be something to do with the platform anyway. But yeah, she suggested not that I do a lot of stuff on social media anyway, but you know, you’re going to Facebook and this pops up and that pops up and she said, you know, remove yourself from any apps that, not apps, mean, I see I’m such a technological idiot. Yeah, removing from social media.

things about, you know, thinness and people, know, fitness stuff that’s portraying these women with these, you know, very sculpted bodies doing this, that and the other. And for me, working in the fitness industry, you know, I had a lot of that stuff on my social media because I was getting ideas for classes and all that kind of stuff. But once you get rid of or delete a lot of those, then they don’t come up in your feed and…

Susan Horky (01:05:37.036)
and just don’t see it around you.

ChristinaH (01:05:38.564)
not exposed to it anymore and I found that was really helpful and also obviously as you and I do listening to a lot of podcasts which you know portray body positivity and you know a healthy you know a healthy relationship with your body and that you as a person are not your body you’re the person inside your body. Yeah so that I found that was really

Susan Horky (01:05:41.804)
Yeah. Not full. Yeah.

Susan Horky (01:06:02.702)
And I agree. podcasts, I still, even two years in, I find podcasts happy because it just reinforces this other way of thinking about things and living your life.

ChristinaH (01:06:16.174)
Correct. That’s exactly right. Yeah. The other thing that I’d mentioned as well, it doesn’t happen to me very often, but you know, like when you were talking about your friend talking about wanting to lose a few pounds the other day, I have been, there’s been a couple of occasions where there’s been a conversation about losing weight and I feel really uncomfortable in it and I’ve said,

Oh, look, do you mind if we don’t talk about it? Because I’m recovering from an eating disorder. it’s, and for the, know, when you first say that it’s sort of like, it’s like burying your soul and people turn around and they say, Oh, oh, sorry. But it’s, think it’s really helpful for people to understand that.

Susan Horky (01:07:03.138)
Yes, yeah.

ChristinaH (01:07:12.342)
you know, when people talk about stuff like that, it’s not just, you’re lucky because you’re thin or you’re slim. It’s actually, you’re not well. It’s like that Glennon Doyle quote. And I think it gets people to second guess, okay, well, no, you’re not necessarily this shape or size by choice. And yeah, maybe, you know, we don’t really need to talk about this stuff so much or…

Susan Horky (01:07:22.444)
Right. Right.

Susan Horky (01:07:33.272)
Right. Right.

ChristinaH (01:07:40.1)
But it’s the whole societal thing of this diet culture that it has to be a topic of conversation.

Susan Horky (01:07:40.685)
Right.

Susan Horky (01:07:44.274)
That’s, yeah. I know. it’s so, and it’s sort of something that I think women in particular kind of bond around. it’s, it’s just, it’s very sad, you know, and the, the other thing is like, I wonder if younger people really think about the fact that if they don’t stop participating in diet culture, they’re going to become old ladies still worried about their weight, which just seems sort of sad.

ChristinaH (01:07:54.665)
All right. It is.

ChristinaH (01:08:11.364)
That’s exactly right. Yeah. I heard something, it was a podcast the other day where this lady, she’d gone to visit her grandmother who was 93 and she was still worrying about what she weighed. I just thought, oh God. And like you said the other day, the fact we don’t have to think about it anymore, it’s just such a relief. Yeah.

Susan Horky (01:08:14.382)
Bye!

Susan Horky (01:08:25.08)
This is… Wow. It’s so st-

Susan Horky (01:08:33.504)
It’s so nice. It’s just, mean, really, cause I think when I think about what the emotion was that associated with not even just the anorexia, but the whole partial recovery, was always anxiety. was like, I, you know, the, the scale was up a pound or, you know, I was only able to run five miles instead of six or, know, and the degree to which

ChristinaH (01:08:55.011)
Correct.

Susan Horky (01:08:57.248)
And I’m sure you had this too. had to turn myself into a pretzel to make sure that I didn’t eat more than I wanted or thought I should have and that I got my exercise in. mean, for me actually, even though I only had one set amount of exercise I ever did and I adjusted my eating accordingly, but…

ChristinaH (01:09:16.036)
See you then.

Susan Horky (01:09:19.042)
But if I went on vacation or I went to a conference, if I had to be at a seven o’clock breakfast at a conference, I would get up at 430 and run in a strange city. mean, you know, it’s just like having that, it’s dangerous. you know, it’s sort of like, yeah. And it’s just like the pressure that you’re always under, self-inflicted, is really hard. So I guess what I’m saying is.

ChristinaH (01:09:28.002)
Yeah, which is kind of dangerous. Yeah, I used to do that too.

Susan Horky (01:09:48.862)
It’s worth it to gain weight to not have those feelings.

ChristinaH (01:09:53.074)
for sure. And you know, when you saying about running in strange cities and you know, running in the dark, I remember, you know, being in some really dodgy part of Melbourne one time doing that and thinking, and you know, running along and it was still dark and there was a couple of shady characters hanging around. I thought, actually, this is really quite dangerous. Yeah, that’s right.

Susan Horky (01:09:58.402)
Yeah.

Susan Horky (01:10:11.203)
Yeah.

I really should not be here. But then the importance, quote, importance of maintaining one’s weight out overrules any of that. It’s crazy.

ChristinaH (01:10:26.084)
Correct, that’s right. It’s that weight and balances thing. The other thing too, I would never go anywhere, anywhere, and my husband actually pulled me up on it the other day, without packing my gym gear, just in case. Couldn’t go anywhere without my runners and my running and my tights.

Susan Horky (01:10:31.693)
Yeah.

Susan Horky (01:10:42.092)
Yep. Just in case. Right.

Right. Well, it’s so true. I actually now packing is so much easier because I used to take my running shoes, you know, a couple of pairs of running socks, a couple of pairs of shorts, a couple of shirts. And if I was going to be gone a week and I wasn’t sure I was going to have access to laundry, then you know, that took up a lot of space. So it’s, you know, it’s very nice. So there are these things that offset all the,

ChristinaH (01:10:53.614)
Yeah.

ChristinaH (01:11:04.356)
Yeah, it was.

That’s an issue. Yeah.

Susan Horky (01:11:17.41)
things you lose when you decide to go and recover.

ChristinaH (01:11:18.692)
That’s true. Actually, I had just, I think one of the things we were going to talk about was the partial recovery, some of our behaviours. Yeah, so that Jimi thing was one of them. Did you have a list of some things you wanted to talk about with that?

Susan Horky (01:11:28.716)
Yes, yes, yeah.

Susan Horky (01:11:37.55)
Well, I think just within the partial recovery I really think that it’s as I jotted down with the things that that I did and I think this is similar for you it for somebody who is in constant diet culture and doesn’t know there’s another way and Maybe even for people in the medical profession. This would all seem normal and good like, you know always Calculating calories in my I I did the calorie Kristin. You did not do the

ChristinaH (01:11:59.148)
Yes.

Susan Horky (01:12:07.182)
calorie thing, but I did the, you know, my fitness pal, keeping track of your calories. So always, no matter what I was doing, or if I was in the kitchen with somebody else cooking, or I was calculating calories, you know, trying to get that extra, making sure, not even trying, but making sure that I got that exercise in no matter how inconvenient, or if I was visiting friends and there really wasn’t time to run, but I was going to make sure I ran.

ChristinaH (01:12:33.336)
You made it. Yeah.

Susan Horky (01:12:35.892)
all those little rules about, know, I mean, for me, it was no sugar, very little bread, very little oil, you know, just, mean, mostly because those were the higher calorie things. I mean, I was, I was not like a health purist in that way. Restricted that I wanted things that would maximize my intake. So, you know, that kind…

ChristinaH (01:12:48.812)
Yeah, yeah, that’s right, because you’re working on such restricted… Yeah.

Susan Horky (01:13:01.462)
of thing, you know, and the thing about parking at work, you know, everybody says, it’s just good. just incorporate exercise into your daily life. You know, park several blocks from where you work and then you can get some extra. But it was like, so I did, right? So it was like, so I think for me, I would just like anybody listening who, who, you know, either recovering from an eating disorder or just knows people who are doing these things and thinking that they’re normal.

ChristinaH (01:13:10.904)
Yeah, so you did.

Susan Horky (01:13:31.158)
and thinking that they’re healthy. I just think people, it would help, I think it would help people to be aware that there is another way and that if you do, I if you’re keeping yourself below where your body naturally wants to be, in and of itself, it’s not worth it and it’s not healthy. That’s my opinion.

ChristinaH (01:13:52.6)
That’s exactly right. And what’s going to show you that you are keeping your body below what it’s meant to be is these very behaviours that you have to restrict more, exercise more, all that sort of stuff. If you’ve got to work at it, it means your body’s below its set point.

Susan Horky (01:14:02.944)
Yes.

Susan Horky (01:14:07.01)
bright.

Susan Horky (01:14:12.77)
Right. Yep. Yep. And I just think…

ChristinaH (01:14:15.478)
Exactly.

Yeah, no, you guys, sorry.

Susan Horky (01:14:19.958)
that I would like people, I don’t even know if this is true, but my imagining out there, I mean, have a little bit of the zeal of the convert, I apologize. But I do think there’s a lot of people out there who are just, I just watch my weight. But the problem is that then ties in with caring about your weight, worrying about gaining weight. There’s a whole other

ChristinaH (01:14:29.969)
I am.

Susan Horky (01:14:49.854)
series of things that go into that that then keep you from being fully present in your life.

ChristinaH (01:14:55.064)
That’s exactly right. You’re so focused on that, that yeah, the rest of life is passing you by. You’re kind of walking in parallel with them because it’s always sitting there just below the surface. Yeah.

Susan Horky (01:15:02.242)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly, exactly.

ChristinaH (01:15:11.659)
Um, sorry, just going to. Yeah, actually one of the things that well, you know, a couple of the things that when I realized I was in partial recovery after, after starting with body love binge is that, you know, I used to get a real dopamine, dopamine hit when the number on the scale went down. So that was the case. If I got on the scales and the number had gone down, I had a great day. But if

Susan Horky (01:15:31.896)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Or.

Susan Horky (01:15:39.884)
Yes. I mean, it felt almost like a high. If you could fit in your clothes or the number went down or you look back on the day and you’d eaten a hundred calories less than you’d a lot of juice.

ChristinaH (01:15:43.745)
Absolutely.

ChristinaH (01:15:51.286)
Yeah, that’s right tick tick tick. you’ve been so good today. Yeah and then

Susan Horky (01:15:55.308)
Yes, and it really, think that’s where my energy came from was I was sort of high on being successful at this, which is really sick.

ChristinaH (01:16:03.456)
It is and I can completely agree with that because you know since coming to point of recovery I actually do feel tired or I think I’m allowing myself to feel tired and and it’s okay to feel tired tired.

Susan Horky (01:16:16.974)
feel right. Yes, yes. And at least it means you’re tuning in rather than just overruling what your body feels. You’re actually tuning in and responding.

ChristinaH (01:16:24.824)
That’s exactly right. Yes, yeah, that’s exactly right. Overruling is what we were doing, overruling our bodies. Well, it’s a bit like overruling hunger cues, isn’t it? Just overruling other aspects of your body, yeah. What else did I have? Yeah, think that’s it. think that’s been the thing that’s, you know, I’ve just come to this point where I think, my God, this

Susan Horky (01:16:32.398)
Yeah.

Susan Horky (01:16:35.82)
Yep, same kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. And not trusting everybody. Let’s see, okay.

ChristinaH (01:16:53.538)
This thing that we inhabit is the most extraordinary, extraordinary thing. What the body can do in terms of what we can put it through, it still keeps bouncing back. And it keeps bouncing back when you’re our age. It’s absolutely amazing.

Susan Horky (01:16:57.228)
Right. And it is.

Susan Horky (01:17:07.627)
Yeah, and it still bounces back. Yeah, yeah.

I know, which is pretty amazing because you can envision that it just wouldn’t, but it, but it really, it really is. see too that, Gail had asked about, how to deal with setbacks. And I, I was very fortunate that I,

Maybe it’s that business of not trying, but doing kind of, I was really lucky that I didn’t have a setback in terms of eating. And I don’t think you did either. I I, I just said, this is going to, I’m going to gain weight. don’t like it. I’m going to enjoy eating. And that’s that I did have, and we’ve talked about this, not setbacks really, but days where the body image stuff was harder than other days. and I just tried.

ChristinaH (01:17:43.438)
No, I didn’t.

ChristinaH (01:17:59.47)
for sure. you know, think, yeah, like you had said with those days and you just, and you just, look really, you feel so, well, this is not now, but you know, in that period of recovery, I’m just hating this. when you think about the reality of the alternative of you have to go back to restrict, you have to go back to over-exercising.

Susan Horky (01:18:15.086)
Right.

Susan Horky (01:18:19.97)
Yeah.

Bye.

ChristinaH (01:18:27.586)
I just mentally and physically couldn’t contemplate it anymore. I just sort of said, well, it is what it is. I’ve just got to suck it up, princess, and get on with it.

Susan Horky (01:18:30.478)
couldn’t. Yeah.

Susan Horky (01:18:38.54)
Right, and move on and let it go. you know, in the moment, it’s not so easy, but the thing is that it does pass. I mean, it’s what we used to talk about the roller coaster, you know, that you can have a really bad moment or day or whatever.

ChristinaH (01:18:49.859)
dust.

Hmm.

Susan Horky (01:18:58.464)
It’s hard to believe, even probably four months ago, it turned out this was because I was about to be going to my annual physical appointment. And I think in the back of my head, I knew I was going to be weighed. And I had like three or four days of just feeling like my body was achy and thinking, this is never going to pass. And of course it did, it went away, you know, and it hasn’t returned. So it’s just…

ChristinaH (01:19:23.81)
Yeah, that’s right. It’s that, you know, it’s that fear, that word fear, it’s an acronym. What is it? False expectations appearing real. So, you know, we have this in our mind that this is the worst thing that could possibly happen in our lives. And then it happens and it’s nothing. Yeah. Yeah.

Susan Horky (01:19:32.152)
Yeah.

Susan Horky (01:19:37.004)
Yes. Yes.

Susan Horky (01:19:47.208)
It’s right, it’s really not so bad. I’m trying to think about, so Gail had asked about, we’ve talked about a lot of these, but sort of what helped with body image and a couple of other things I think we didn’t talk about. One that helped was gratitude, which sounds very new agey and stuff like that. If when I felt really icky,

ChristinaH (01:20:11.853)
Yeah.

Susan Horky (01:20:16.462)
I, when I looked in the mirror, I would just think about all the things that I was so appreciative of in my life. It didn’t even have to be about my looks or my body, but just sort of my life. That actually helped me a lot. and then the other one was in my life, I have known a few women, who, who just never ever did worry about what they looked at or their weight anyway. You know, I mean, and

ChristinaH (01:20:22.382)
Yes.

No.

ChristinaH (01:20:28.514)
Yeah, sure.

ChristinaH (01:20:42.498)
Yes.

Susan Horky (01:20:44.366)
you know, several of them were for the Scandinavian countries and they were sort of, you know, tall and strong, not necessarily. But I always admired them because it didn’t seem to factor in to their way of being. And so in my worst moments, I would sort of imagine one of those women and what they would be like, you know, this is just not an issue for them. So those things.

ChristinaH (01:20:53.838)
ChristinaH (01:20:59.832)
Yeah, that’s exactly right.

ChristinaH (01:21:11.62)
Yeah, that’s exactly right. you know, going back to, and for some of us, you know, when you think about Victoria’s situation, not even being 10 years old and already having such an awareness of your body. And I just, you know, it would just be so wonderful for us all to be able to go back to that time when you’re just being, you’re just being.

Susan Horky (01:21:25.036)
Yes! gosh.

Susan Horky (01:21:34.38)
Yes, and just

ChristinaH (01:21:38.05)
the person that you are. So I actually spent a lot of time looking at my grandkids now and just seeing the way they’re looking around and just, yeah, try and see myself back in that kind of mental space.

Susan Horky (01:21:39.853)
Right.

Susan Horky (01:21:43.31)
Yes, yes, I remember it.

Susan Horky (01:21:49.464)
Back in that, right, where you’re just kind of going through life and playing outside and not, yeah, just not thinking, not aware of it. I mean, it’s just a non, a non-issue.

ChristinaH (01:21:53.368)
doing your thing. Yeah.

ChristinaH (01:21:58.722)
Yeah, it’s just, we’re just in the vehicle doing our thing. And that’s the way we all should be feeling. But diet cultures, you know, created this absolute monster.

Susan Horky (01:22:04.354)
Right.

Yeah, yeah.

So, I think Christine, I think Victoria made a really good point that there is an element of, without wanting to sound too radical about this, but there is an element of key, particularly women, kind of, you know, focused on other things. So they aren’t going out there in the world and feeling good about themselves, which is a really unfortunate thing.

ChristinaH (01:22:31.48)
Yeah, that’s right. And there’s still that message, that very strong subliminal message that our job in life, our purpose on this planet is to look good for men.

Susan Horky (01:22:43.02)
Make right. Look good for men, make other people happy, all these sort of crazy things. hopefully, hopefully we can move beyond that. gosh. I think that sounds like a good, a good ending note. When we have new ideas, we’ll just talk to Christina about another podcast.

ChristinaH (01:22:47.929)
Yeah.

ChristinaH (01:22:55.15)
things will change. Yeah. So will we wind up on that note then?

Yeah.

ChristinaH (01:23:09.188)
Yeah, I’m sure she’ll be happy to do another one. She may get some more questions after this one.

Susan Horky (01:23:15.726)
Yeah, that’s right, and then we can recycle. well, it’s lovely to see you, and I hope the listeners…

ChristinaH (01:23:21.954)
Yeah, you too. It so lovely and special to talk to you. And I’ll be talking to you via email tomorrow.

Susan Horky (01:23:28.302)
Very soon exactly. Alrighty. Bye. Bye

ChristinaH (01:23:32.044)
Bye Susan. Talk to you soon. Bye.

Susan Horky (01:23:35.768)
Yep.