Victoria Kleinsman (00:01.186)
And here we are. Well, Mike, welcome to the podcast.

Mike (00:06.594)
Thank you. Excited to be here.

Victoria Kleinsman (00:08.878)
So for my listeners, first thing, there’s a little bit of a delay, so I’ll say into Mike before we press record. It’s good for me to pause, which I didn’t just do, so note to self, pause a little bit between speaking again. And the most important thing, I asked Mike to come on because we actually met through Mike reaching out to me years ago now to help a friend with anorexia, and I worked with Finja, this.

incredible woman and she’s now doing really well and me and Mike just formed a friendship and we voice message quite often and we share very deep spiritual concepts and what we’re struggling with and all sorts of things so I said to him will you come on the podcast and we’ll have like one of our conversations in real time to give value to others and he said yes so that’s why he’s here.

Mike (01:02.018)
Yeah. It’s been very nice to stay connected with you over these years. Not what I expected to come out of, you know, when I first found you, I think, which was actually through your podcast. Because I was doing a bunch of research when I learned about Finya, you know, my friends at OREXIA and trying to figure out like, what is this and what can I learn to help? And your podcast was one that really spoke to me. And so found your contact.

info reached out, but it’s really cool those unexpected ways that life goes. That here we are, I don’t know what is it, three years later still talking, so it’s cool.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:45.294)
Yeah, it’s beautiful how life unfolds if you trust and follow your heart.

So I’d like to dive in first. Me and Mike have got a lot to talk about and I’ve only got a few notes in my head, so it’s just going to be a very natural, intuitive-led conversation. But I think the best thing to start with, Mike, is when we were chatting the other day and you shared that your Word of the Year for last year, so 2025, would that have been? Well, I’ll let you share what it was and then why you chose that, then we’ll just kind of start digging in there.

Mike (02:18.573)
Okay, yeah, correct me if I’m wrong, but for last year, discomfort was my word. And then this year I have a new word. So do you want to start with discomfort for last year? Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (02:29.274)
Yeah, why did you choose? So many of us often choose like a, I’m not saying it’s not empowering because you’re going to go into why you chose that, but when I first heard that I was like, wow, tell me more because so many of us choose like a quote unquote positive word to embrace for the year. So why did you choose that and how has it gone the last year embracing that word?

Mike (02:41.197)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (02:51.661)
Yeah. So it took me a little bit because every year at the beginning, I go through a couple of words and what feels right. And I had some other ones and I think I had three or four, which I honestly don’t remember the others, but they definitely sounded more empowering. You know, maybe like I think one year I had flow, which is just, you know, kind of going with the way life goes. And last year, just discomfort spoke to me because I realized through my journey of just

growth and exploring my inner world that so often the points where I would turn away from being authentic was like from discomfort, right? It was going to be awkward or it was going to be, I don’t know, just uncomfortable. I’d be nervous or scared or someone would get mad and there’s parts inside of me that are afraid of that. so yeah, discomfort was just a way to lean into, um,

those things I was avoiding, whether it was a difficult conversation or honestly just being with difficult emotions, right? It’s so easy to just, this doesn’t feel nice and I want to get away from it. So you find a way to get away from it. But the more I have explored spirituality and growth,

that world, I realized how my desire for comfort was really blocking that. And it wasn’t like, let’s, know, like disregarding all my parts and these fears and just say, well, too bad we’re diving in and it’s gonna suck. It was kind of doing it intentionally with some care, you know, taking those parts into this discomfort and reassuring them that like, we’re gonna try this, we can always back out, you know.

But let’s try it, let’s sit with it for a bit and see how it feels. then afterwards having like a check-in with my inner world and saying like, did that go? How did it feel? What could we, how could I support you better in that? And yeah, I mean, I think it’s still a journey I’m on because there’s a desire and maybe that will always be there for comfort. And I think it’s a natural human desire and comfort, there’s nothing wrong with comfort. Like we need comfort.

Mike (05:04.107)
I just think sometimes we make it our number one priority and we’re not willing to face anything uncomfortable. then I feel like at least for me that would have led to like a limited growth, a limited life, less depth, less connection. And honestly, even something like this, which I know like in this moment I’m really enjoying reconnecting. And I know I’m gonna love that I did it. But if I had just said, I’m a little like.

nervous about that, like what if it doesn’t go well? I could have said, I could have said no, right? But I decided to say yes because despite some discomfort, it seemed important, right? And you can, kind of know like what is important. It’s just so easy to turn away from it. So yeah, I think that was it. And actually the first thing I did, which was kind of a practical way to face it was at the beginning of last year, I, well, I think it was March, but I joined an improv group. And so that was something, and it was like,

Victoria Kleinsman (05:59.782)
Cool!

Mike (06:02.153)
Yeah, I was like, what? That sounds very uncomfortable. So let’s do it. You know, it was like my decision to do that was directly connected to the fact that I knew it was going to be uncomfortable. And then during the class, there was, know, there was a group of about 15 people and you did these improv exercises and acting and being silly. And that was uncomfortable for a lot of my parts and also really like nice. And there was like this release and excitement and fun. And then there was an option to actually perform on stage. And again, I was like,

I don’t need to do that. I’ve done this class, that’s enough. But then I realized there’s another opportunity to face it. And that I’m really happy I did. It was like a very short 30-second scene on stage, but in front of 200 people. And not my thing. I’m not really into being on stage and performing. But it was really cool to do it. And I think the more you do it, the more you realize you’re safe in the discomfort. And then that’s kind of the big lesson.

Victoria Kleinsman (06:47.663)
you

Victoria Kleinsman (07:00.346)
Yeah, that’s a very key word is safety. But before we dive into what that means, would you say from personal experience, discomfort and fear are the same or are they different to you?

Mike (07:17.901)
I think they’re the same. would say anytime I feel a discomfort, it’s an inner emotional thing. mean, sometimes you have physical discomfort, but speaking about just emotional discomfort, like an aversion to something, if I have that part that is kind of freaking out, there’s a feeling of nervousness, stomach sinking, or your heart’s going, and you feel like…

Yeah, sweaty palms, whatever, you just want to avoid the thing. If I take time to just pause and check in with my inner world, I will find that there’s a part that’s afraid, that feels unsafe, that feels like something could go wrong and this could lead to something very bad. And it’s often connected to some experience that that younger part, like an inner child that you have, had experienced where they weren’t safe, right? And they fear that this experience will bring them back to that.

Victoria Kleinsman (08:02.192)
Yeah.

Mike (08:14.316)
And they don’t know now that they have you to help them, right? And so short answer, yes. In my experience, it’s always fear. There’s always something that a part’s afraid of.

Victoria Kleinsman (08:23.93)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (08:29.446)
I would agree for sure because the discomfort is maybe like a smoke signal. Depends on, like you said when you’ve just so beautifully shared how you faced and embraced this word discomfort for last year. It sounds like you didn’t just go ball to the walls for a…

like ever better saying, that’s what we use in England. And you were just like, for example, if this isn’t one of yours, but this is the best way to describe what I want to say here. If someone wanted to start running and they’ve never ran before, they wouldn’t just be like, well, I’m just going to run a marathon. Because that would not be good for their physical health, mental health, spiritual health, emotional health, more so physical. So when you have faced your discomfort, it was…

Mike (08:52.694)
Yeah.

Mike (09:13.013)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (09:18.244)
gradual but it had to be in your stretch zone because otherwise then you don’t grow. how do you know, and I know everyone’s different but if you share your inner experience, how do you know what’s in your panic zone versus what’s in your stretch zone which then expands that comfort zone?

Mike (09:36.161)
Yeah, I think for me, and I forgot about those terms which you had shared years ago when we first met. I’m like, yeah, that’s exactly what I was doing. I think for me it was a matter of, and we’ll get into this later perhaps, but doing parts work. So that’s like my internal parts, inner children that are in me. There’s maintaining a connection with them during discomfort, right? To let them know, hey, will you trust me to try this thing?

Victoria Kleinsman (10:02.022)
Hmm.

Mike (10:05.194)
and you let me know if it’s too much and we’ll stop, right? And so I think it’s a matter of being in connection there and just paying attention to when it’s like, is getting to like, panic. You just feel like it’s too much and I need to step back and just regroup kind of. And for me, doing that stretch was like, it was very important to check in with the part, who’s afraid or parts to…

you know, have basically an internal conversation in my mind and kind of make a plan. And then the check-in afterwards is really important. So say you do the thing, it was scary, but you were checking with the par and he or she was fine with it. It was like, okay, I’m okay. Like it’s all scary, but it’s fine. And then afterwards doing a check-in to see like, how did that go? Because often I think like your analogy of the marathon.

There’s a book I read, Atomic Habits, which is very popular, but it has a very good lesson about if you want to build a habit, just do like a little bit that’s very easy to accomplish and kind of leaves you wanting more. So if you were going to start running, like going like a one minute run, because you’re going to be like, I kind of want more, but just kind of call it. So a little bit the same, like with the discomfort, it’s surprising and you may not expect it, but after checking in with the parts, they feel like a little empowered and they’re excited that they tried it.

and that they were safe and that you were there with them, you know? And so I think that helps with the stretching because you do a little bit and then you check in afterwards and if it was too much for them then you can learn from it but if not, you will find more willingness next time. So that’s how I approached it.

Victoria Kleinsman (11:51.482)
Yeah.

I fully agree and so beautifully explained by the way and I want to reiterate what you’re saying because it’s so key for our listeners. Connecting to yourself, to your inner world and your inner children or inner child whichever kind of version of you needs that support through the fear and the discomfort is so key before, during and after because what I used to do before I learnt all of this was to go ball to the walls and be like right

I’m afraid of this thing. I’m gonna do the absolute best, highest, most scariest thing ever to prove that I can and kind of do it, but not really grow because I’ve just re-traumatized myself because I was like disconnecting, disassociating and just getting stuff done and just pushing myself, which did serve me in life to some extent. So that’s why my brain kept doing it because I have evidence that it kind of worked.

Mike (12:36.492)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (12:52.388)
and got me far, but I was completely disconnected from my inner children who were so afraid and were still afraid because I was just ignoring them and doing the thing anyway. So can you give me like a, if you don’t mind sharing, a tangible example, maybe the improve or something else that you did last year where you checked in before what was happening with one of your parts or parts during and then after so people can have like a very tangible example of what this might look like.

Mike (12:52.716)
Mm-mm.

Mike (13:21.098)
Yeah. And I think when you were talking about like going balls to the wall, it’s, I don’t know, made me think of exposure therapy, which is again meant to be done gradually. And also made me think like people are different. So that’s why it’s important. Sometimes kind of going really deep into it does work, but that’s where the check-in is important. so each person is different. And I think that’s where that checking in is important for me. was trying to think of a tangible example.

Victoria Kleinsman (13:39.845)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (13:51.386)
Maybe with the podcast.

Mike (13:51.403)
I mean, I guess.

Yeah. Well, I haven’t been able to check in afterwards with this yet. However, I did do just I did you earlier today some check-ins so could feel that nervous part. And you’re sometimes nervous and excited or a similar energy. And so I wasn’t sure which it was, but I did check in and there’s, know, like an inner child in there who. And often, you know, to our logical brains, there these words sound

like, like it’s, seems illogical or like over the top, but that’s how our inner children often experience things. So for him, it was like, I could go into this and I could just completely blow it and have this like awkward, difficult conversation and like lose some connection with Victoria. So there was this like fear of loss, right? Of this connection. And so just checking in with him and being able to provide some perspective of like, you know, we’ve

had this friendship for a long time and I understand it like allowing his fear to be fully honored. Like it makes sense that you feel that way with the experiences you’ve felt, but will you trust me to try this experience and will you let me share some of my past experiences of how it has gone, right? To like provide some reassurance. there’s just like that, yeah, just taking a moment to like look inside and honestly, it’s like, I think for some people it seems like…

weird or strange, but you’re having just a straight up conversation in your mind with a part of you as if you’re two different people almost. I mean, it’s you as a young person, so you feel very close. yeah, you just have this conversation and you really like, one of the big things is just listening. So even without providing reassurance that it was going to be okay, just by listening to his concerns, there was this like relief. And then there was this ability to say like,

Mike (15:53.462)
Okay, well, will you trust me to try it? And if it’s not going well, we can resist. And I think another tangible example would just be like difficult conversations with, I mean, family is a tough one. And so you will have…

Yeah, like we’re talking about moving from Alaska to Spain. Like we’ll still have connection to Alaska, but that was a difficult conversation because we have a close family. and I knew there would be some disappointment of like, we might be leaving this, you know, like tight knit group we have for something we want to explore over there. And so that was one where I really had to check in, with those parts. Again, provide that listening, essentially ask them for some trust to try it.

Try the thing, know, maybe not have a full conversation, but broach the subject and see how it goes. The part’s gonna be a little nervous, you’ll feel that. And then afterwards, you know, seeing how it went. And in almost all my experiences, I can’t think of one that didn’t go this way. The part feels like happy that you did it because there’s this sense of like having accomplished something, the part feels kind of brave, like, we did this thing and it was okay.

And so I think that’s where that check-in really helps. And honestly, in difficult conversations that I’ve had with people, the fear is normally disconnection, like I’m going to lose this person. And while that is a possibility, can even find a place where that happens and I’m OK. However, most of the time, you’ve actually come closer just through, I guess, vulnerability and being able to share, you know, rather than just having a surface-level relationship.

share some vulnerable, scary things, you express why you’re afraid to share it and why you want this thing, and then that person can share from a similar place and it just tends to result in like a closeness with that other person.

Victoria Kleinsman (18:00.164)
Yeah, there’s two things I want to ask you about. Which one shall I choose first? When you say to a part of you that’s afraid, do you trust me to guide you or do you trust me to support you? Who is the me?

Mike (18:16.319)
Hmm. It’s a good question. So, in parts work there is… There’s a me who’s not a part. And this kind of, like, if people are interested in exploring that more, there’s a book that I really love called No Bad Parts. And it’s by Richard Schwartz who created IFS, Internal Family Systems. He was like a family systems therapist. And then he realized we have this internal family.

Victoria Kleinsman (18:20.422)
you

Mike (18:45.725)
inner children and inner teenagers and basically all these different parts inside of us that were with us since birth but took have taken on these roles to help protect us in difficult situations. And through like checking in with parts and what they’re afraid of and what they need in every client that he ever had and in me having done this spontaneously a what you might at first feel like a part arises but if you ask that like what part are you?

There’s like a response of, I’m not a part. This is me. This is like Mike, the one who’s not a part. And there’s actually a course by him called the Spirituality of Internal Family Systems, because if you want to go down that road, it becomes quite spiritual, because it’s like a connection to divinity or to God or to whatever word you want to choose. There’s this self in us. Or honestly, like what Buddhism calls no self. It’s kind of confusing, because those sound like opposites, but they’re actually the same thing.

Victoria Kleinsman (19:43.418)
Yes.

Mike (19:45.355)
What PartsWork calls the self is this… This… It’s you, basically, without the parts… Because often a part will what they call blend or merge with you, and then they’re basically running the show. And then through PartsWork and doing some… Just deep listening and questioning, then this self will appear. So it’s a little difficult to explain, but it is…

Victoria Kleinsman (20:02.64)
Mm.

Mike (20:16.106)
It’s in everyone. It often arises spontaneously and it’s this part, or it’s not a part, it’s this energy, this self, this being who has this ability to heal and this ability to listen deeply. yeah, when I’ve experienced it doing parts therapy, there’s no effort. It’s just sometimes there. And when it’s not there, that’s okay too. There’s just a part that’s not willing to unblend.

And so that self is covered up. But it’s always there. And when it does appear, it wants to listen, it wants to heal. But there’s no…

I mean, I know I just said it, that you want these things or yourself wants these things. But one of the key aspects is that there is no agenda because you might feel like, I think I’m in me. But you realize the scared part comes up and you want it to go away. You’re like, oh, I need to fix this. But when you’re in self, when you’re in self energy, there’s no agenda. You’re just like, I’m just here for you. If you want to talk, listen, you just, it’s just like this big opening of like willing.

to accept all these parts without needing them to change, and yet by doing that they do change, so it’s kind of this interesting paradox. And I don’t remember all of them, but one cool thing that Richard Schwartz, the founder of parts work of internal family systems, identified is what he calls the eight C’s of self, and it’s like clarity, compassion, well, I can’t think of any others.

clarity, compassion, confidence. I could look them up, but it’s basically this, you just feel very grounded, very kind, open, and yeah, there’s always like a compassion, a clarity, a courageousness, oh, curiosity is another one. And so one interesting thing they do in parts work is if you find a nervous, like a scared part, one of the good…

Mike (22:22.27)
things to ask yourself is how do I feel towards this part, right? And if I feel like a kindness, a compassion, a curiosity, that’s like a sign that you are in this self energy. If you feel like, I don’t really like it, I want it to go away or I’m mad at it or I’m, like sadness is okay, because that’s often compassion. But if you’re mad at a part or you’re just irritated by a part, that’s actually another part. And then in parts work, we now check in with that part and say, hey, like,

Victoria Kleinsman (22:34.48)
Thank you.

Mike (22:50.846)
what’s going on here, like why are you upset? And then you’ll learn something more about yourself. And you can often ask that part that is mad at another part to give some space, and then you can check in. It’s a very interesting inner world. yeah, I think I’ll pause there, because you maybe have some questions.

Victoria Kleinsman (23:02.127)
Mmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (23:10.02)
Yeah, I mean, I love the way you’ve explained it because behind all the parts of us, even our inner adult, our inner parent, that’s still a part that we can use to support us in reparenting little us. But behind all the parts is the self or the no self, whatever the fuck you want to call it. And that’s the part, like you said, that

Mike (23:25.876)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (23:30.954)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (23:35.814)
can be very quiet, but it’s always there if we just allow it to come through. It’s always compassionate, it’s always loving, it’s always curious. And I love how you described if you’re working with a part and you said, how do I feel towards that part? The I, of course, is the self. So if I feel anger, you’re not actually in the self.

Mike (23:45.353)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (23:59.004)
Wait.

Victoria Kleinsman (24:05.422)
you’re in this other part, which it sounds a bit crazy, because when I also started part work, I was like, what the fuck, am I bipolar with all these different personalities going on? But it’s just part of us that haven’t actually matured. So there’s a great book, and I can’t think of the author, but it’s called The Inner Child Workbook. It’s by two people. And I think it’s a man and a woman, but she was describing in this part that.

Mike (24:05.556)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (24:13.426)
Alright.

Yeah.

Mike (24:27.166)
Hmm

Victoria Kleinsman (24:33.806)
all these inner children that we have within us, when we’ve not been able to develop and grow up and mature because we weren’t given what we needed, we weren’t shown how to mature, we weren’t held through these big emotions, there’s parts of us that get stuck as one year olds, two year olds, six year olds. So that’s why I can notice often when I ask my clients how they feel about something. If they use toddler language such as bad, I feel bad.

and I ask them to elaborate and it’s very challenging to say anything but I just feel bad. It’s showing me that there’s a part of them that’s not actually yet matured from toddlerhood because all they know is I feel good or bad. They’ve not had someone allow them to grow up and nurture them to the next age. So that’s our job to nurture our inner children and hold them through by listening, that’s the key thing you’ve said, asking them what they need.

Mike (25:18.228)
Mm hmm. Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (25:30.094)
and being there for them and it’s quite simple but it’s not easy because there’s all these parts in the way isn’t there?

Mike (25:36.944)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it’s I think that’s well put that it is very simple When I’ve done it, but it’s it’s it’s not easy and Sometimes that’s we’re having a coach or a therapist really helps because they can guide you through it Because even myself, you know, I felt most of my life’s like I don’t really have super big problems I can just do this on my own but when I discovered parts or I can try to do that and I think

Having met you and seeing how you helped Finyad just opened my mind to maybe this is something and having found a parts therapist or coach is like really helpful. You can do quite a bit of this work on your own. It’s just, yeah, it gets difficult sometimes, especially when big emotions come up and you have a difficult time unblending from this part that kind of comes over you and becomes you, you know.

Victoria Kleinsman (26:25.222)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (26:33.257)
And if you can provide, if that part can provide space and you can be in self, it’s only then that you can really provide healing and listening. Cause when you’re fully blended with the part, there’s no, you can’t listen because there’s no space, right? You need to be like you and I are sitting here. have space from each other so we can communicate. If we were completely blended, you can’t, you know, so, um, yeah, I, uh, I having a thought about something you said.

Mike (27:08.743)
I’m not sure.

maybe it’ll come back to me. Yeah, I think probably it will.

Victoria Kleinsman (27:11.992)
It might come back to you. Yeah. I think it’s worth sharing here, and I know we’ve chatted about this, but it’s good for everyone listening, that underneath all of these parts, the protector parts, the angry parts, the pissed off parts, the self-harming parts even, all there is underneath everything is love. All of these parts.

Mike (27:32.862)
Hmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (27:35.094)
love you so much, they’re trying to protect you. Even, you know, I actually was speaking to a client the other day when she was suicidal before and we’ve actually visited that part and the part that wanted to end her life loved her so much she didn’t want her to suffer anymore.

Mike (27:47.934)
Thanks.

Mike (27:54.567)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (27:56.592)
So can you talk about your experience with how you’ve discovered that under all these different parts with all these big emotions which are often rage, fear or grief, they just love you so much because they’re trying to protect you from something. Do you want to explain your experience there?

Mike (28:07.753)
you

Mike (28:15.825)
Yeah, I would. I think it was actually in a conversation with you that you helped me see this love from the parts to me. What I had recognized in my parts work was like so much love from me to the parts. Like every part I met, I just felt so much like tenderness and love towards and compassion. And it was like these hurt children inside me that had been abandoned and then protectors who come to stop that abandoned part from ever resurfacing because

it doesn’t want to feel the pain, know, he or she doesn’t want to feel that pain again. But it was really cool too, because like the book is called No Bad Parts, it’s very much true as you explore and you go deeper into why are you angry or hateful or, you know, have all these really intense emotions, you find out that what they want for you is

happiness or peace or joy and there’s like so much love behind that it’s just that they’ve taken on You know that the parts inside of you are young almost all of the time and they’re not mature enough to handle what happened and So they are coping In a harmful way But the reason for their action is always to help you feel better because they love you right or to prevent you from accessing a hurt part

because they love you, they think that if we go there again, it’s, you know, we won’t be able to handle it. Like, it’s gonna be too much, we’ll be overwhelmed, we’ll die. Or in the case of, yeah, like a suicidal part, they’ve realized that’s the only option left, right, is that to avoid the pain, we have to end it. But behind all of that is just love. And I think that’s been really cool to discover.

And it helps now when I go and check in with parts who might be acting a certain way that another part is maybe mad about. can, I don’t know, I can just be in this space where I can see the part that’s scared and the part that’s mad that this one’s scared and like, you need to grow up. And like, you know, there’s like this inner conflict. And then I can sort of step back and just feel that this is all coming from love. And if I can’t feel that typically all I have to do is spend some time with them.

Mike (30:37.705)
and ask some questions and listen. And then I find out that really behind it, they’re just scared and they want to feel safe. And they want you to feel safe and they want you to, yeah, feel love. And so I think that’s a really beautiful realization that we have, that all our parts have good intentions for us and have love for us and to have that inexperience of feeling love for them. And I think that’s a big

Victoria Kleinsman (30:38.713)
and.

Victoria Kleinsman (31:06.628)
Mm.

Mike (31:07.251)
Potentially a big difficulty for your clients is like that idea of loving yourself and I think it’s often because Parts can feel so mad at other parts that you just feel hate, you know but when you’re in self and you really find it you realize that there’s love behind their actions and that you just feel love for them, but it makes sense that they can’t initially find that because

It doesn’t look like that initially, right? You just see bad behavior and you have a part that hates that this part does that and then you just feel this conflict until you realize that all of the fighting is for the same purpose. They’re all trying to get to the same place, which is like safety and love.

Victoria Kleinsman (31:43.899)
Mmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (31:56.174)
Yeah, you know, something just came to me. I think we should reframe loving yourself to loving your parts and reframe self-love to part love because the self is love. So it’s almost like a cosmic joke because how can you love yourself when the self is love? That’s what it is. So it’s like, yeah.

Mike (32:04.361)
Hmm.

Mike (32:11.421)
Yeah.

Mike (32:18.586)
Yeah, yeah, no, that’s great.

Victoria Kleinsman (32:23.46)
Yeah, loving the parts of us because the you, you, the true you, the true I, the true self, all it is is love. So I think that’s a good reframe, isn’t it, to be like part love and loving parts because the self is love.

Mike (32:31.272)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (32:38.684)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. think I heard a talk from like Eckhart Tolle about, yeah, you can’t love yourself because you are loved exactly what you said. And at the time I heard that it was like, I don’t really like that because I do feel like you need to love yourself. But then I realized, no, you need to love your parts and, and loving yourself is, is all you can do when you’re in self. So it’s like what you are. So yeah, it’s quite cool. And I do think that’s a good reframe and maybe helpful for people to see what, what

they’re struggling with is connection with a part and if they can connect they will discover the love. And yeah, I like that reframe.

Victoria Kleinsman (33:12.112)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (33:21.37)
Yeah, what you said about connection brings me on to what I wanted to share next and that is when I’ve done a lot of part work often and it blew my mind how simple this was. Often, all it took was for me to be with a part and be like, sweetheart, show me, speak to me, what do you need? I’m here for you. And all I had to do is give her space to express what she needed and that was all she needed. And then she felt seen.

Mike (33:46.076)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (33:50.766)
and heard and understood and without me actually doing something or even meeting a need just by seeing her was the need.

Mike (33:56.358)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, think connection is sometimes the ultimate need, which is love to me. Like true connection is love. And yeah, that’s very true because I have found exactly what you said that there’s no, you asked the part, what do you need? know, just exactly what you said was actually perfect. Just like this loving approach to like, I’m here and what do you need? And one of the often an important question is like, what are you afraid of?

Like, what are you afraid of would happen if you didn’t provide these emotions? But again, if you feel this desire to then like, oh, well, you don’t need to be afraid of that because of this and this and this, like, that’s another part. Who’s a manager part, who’s trying to solve something or a thinking part. But actually in your true self, you don’t try to solve it. You are literally just listening and that is the solution. So I think this is probably very cliche, but they say like love is the solution. And I mean, I think when you

Victoria Kleinsman (34:51.578)
Yes.

Mike (34:57.608)
that it’s true and that’s why it’s a cliche. So would say love is the solution, connection, listening, they’re all kind of the same thing.

Victoria Kleinsman (35:05.734)
It brings me back actually, I might get emotional and it’s all good if it happens but to a part, it actually only happened, I was in the Netherlands so it must have been three years ago, maybe even less. I was driving and I had, so when I was in the abusive relationship, he used to play Akon’s album, you know Akon the artist, he has an album called…

Mike (35:25.19)
Yeah, yeah I know.

Victoria Kleinsman (35:29.616)
think it’s called Freedom or something like that. And I just, for some reason, intuitively led, I just felt like playing that album. So as you and I both know, we love songs. nostalgia, the power, the way a song can just take you back somewhere, that way you’ve been. So I played this album, and of course I was right back to the 19-year-old me who was in this very abusive relationship. And…

Mike (35:37.084)
Yeah.

Mike (35:45.202)
Please.

Victoria Kleinsman (35:57.958)
I was at a traffic light and it was on red so I was safe and I pulled the visor down with the mirror on and I was crying and I looked into my eyes and I just said, I see you. I was just like, like I am now, I was like, I see you. And all that needed to happen was that part of me that was so afraid and was trapped in this relationship. I wasn’t trapped, but I thought I was trapped.

Mike (36:03.697)
Hmm.

Mike (36:22.098)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (36:22.702)
She was never seen, not even by me, through healing my eating disorder. I never took the time. I did lot of younger inner child work. Well, this older teenager me, who was really suffering, all she needed from me was to just say, I see you. That’s it. I see you. I see your pain. I’m so sorry you went through that. I’m grieving with you and I love you. And then I felt so liberated and I was able to listen to the songs.

Mike (36:39.303)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (36:51.686)
with this sense of freedom and love and yeah, and that was such a big profound healing moment for 10 minutes in the car, you know?

Mike (36:51.826)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (37:01.832)
Wow. Yeah, that’s a great story. I think it really points to, I don’t know, similar experiences I’ve had. makes me think of when I found a part and it can be teenager or, you know, in my case, I think I was working with this inner child who was about six and had been left behind by his family. You know, they were just going out on an adventure and he was scared and he didn’t want to go and he was afraid they were going to die.

and he was told that’s unreasonable and you know all he needed and all these parts ever need is just me to be there to hear him and to see him and and see him means like to understand right to feel and so often what happens in parts work is you just you keep asking like is there more and like do I do I fully understand you ask the part because they will know once you’ve you’ve

once you understand. And normally what it entails is a lot of emotion, right? Like I felt the fear and the abandonment and the something’s wrong with me because I wasn’t brave enough to go, you know, and they all think I’m broken and I think I’m broken. Like he needed to share all that and I had to feel it all again. And it’s just, yeah, it’s it’s seeing and the seeing is like understanding and you, you and that’s all the part needs.

like all these inner child, and teenagers need is like to be seen, but to be fully seen in the sense that like I really get it, you know, and I’m not trying to solve it or fix it, but I get it. And that’s kind of quite beautiful.

Victoria Kleinsman (38:42.16)
Yeah, and often for me it helped to say to this part or parts like, I’m so sorry, like to really acknowledge what they went through and say, I’m just so sorry that you went through that because I’ve never really took the time to say that to you because that was really hard.

Mike (39:02.278)
Yeah. One thing I’m just having a thought it was from earlier, the thing I forgot. and it just came back. it doesn’t tie in specifically to this, but it’s definitely parts work. that’s, when you’re checking in with a part and you had asked your question was like, when you ask a part to trust you, who’s the you. Right. And that’s how we got into like the true self or the no self. This, this, this energy and being that you are.

Often parts mistake you for younger than you are. And there’s this really cool thing of experience that is like, it’s hard to explain other than by experiencing it, but you’ll be talking to a partner and you say like, will you trust me? so let me go back a little bit. have exile, we have multiple different parts, but the way that IFS defines it is exiles and protectors are two major parts. And often a protector won’t let you get to the exile, which is where the pain is really held. And the protector is like,

Victoria Kleinsman (40:00.358)
Mmm.

Mike (40:01.298)
the manager or the one that kind of makes you do the things or makes you think a certain way, but he’s protecting the exile because there’s a lot of pain. And you will say to a protector, like, can I go to this hard part? I think I can offer healing. And the protector was like, no. And then you often ask like, okay, like why not? And for me, one of the answers is like, we can’t, you can’t handle it. You’re not going to be able to handle it. And then you say like, how old do you think I am? And almost inevitably it’s like six or 10.

nine, you they say, and you can literally say to the part like, well, that’s not true anymore. And you ask them to like face you, you know, this is in your mind’s eye. But you say like, look at me. And, know, I often say like, you know, I’ve got some wrinkles here, a little bit gray. And I’m like showing them like I’m 37 now and I’m like, I’m not the lost child that I was when this happened to you. And there’s like this very interesting, like noticeable, tangible shift in energy as they realize that you’re an adult.

and that you can take care of them. They really just want someone to take care of them, but they think it’s on them. They think they’re the only ones who can do it. And when they realize that you’re there and that you are grown up now, there’s this really cool softening. And a lot of them just immediately are relieved and trust you. Others, it depends. I’ve been lucky in that a lot of my protectors will trust me.

within a session, which is like an hour or so. But sometimes it takes many sessions. have some people that are very strong protectors who are really, they don’t think you can handle it, right? Even when they realize you’re older and it takes a lot of connecting time. You just listen and listen and listen, right? But very often it’s like this immediate shift and it’s really cool to see how your inner world, they think they’re on their own, you know?

and that there’s no one to help them and that they’ve been that they’re the ones that have to make it all work. And that’s where often these like coping mechanisms come from because that’s how they learned to cope and they think it’s only way to do it. And when they learn that you’re there and you can show them a different way, there’s like a they don’t want to most of the time, think probably all of the time, they don’t want to do what they’ve been doing, but they think they have to. And so, yeah, there’s this cool shift in energy when you can appear to them as

Victoria Kleinsman (41:56.88)
Yeah.

Mike (42:26.597)
in your self-energy and show them that you’ve grown up now. And that’s often all they need.

Victoria Kleinsman (42:31.078)
And they are that way because they were alone when they were younger, they didn’t get their needs met and they couldn’t handle the overwhelming emotions which is why these parts are created. So like you say, they’re all there because they love you and they’re trying to do a job. What happens to a part when you see the part, you meet it with love, there’s no longer a job for it to do?

Mike (42:37.553)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (43:01.284)
because it’s healed, where does the art then go in your opinion?

Mike (43:03.558)
Yeah.

Mike (43:07.269)
Yeah, so in my opinion, and it’s been expressed by like Richard Schwartz who founded it, that our parts are like little divine beings as well, right? They’re not just like made up. Like they actually exist is the way I see it. But they exist energetically. I mean, so do we. But we appear to have physical form, you know, so it feels different. But we exist energetically and so do they. Often you will, once you’ve done work with a part and you’ve

Basically, you listen and listen until the part feels like you’ve got it, and then you ask if the part wants to release the burdens they’ve been carrying, which is the beliefs they’ve inherited from the trauma they went through or the experiences they went through, various beliefs about themselves and about the world. But then you will ask, yeah, what would they like to do now? Often the exiles who are the very young hurt children just want to play. And so in my mind, I’ve created this space that I call Narnia.

because from, I don’t know if you know the Narnia books where they enter the closet and there’s this whole world. And so I have this whole world with, you know, like a lake and grass and toys and you know, trampoline and all these cool things. And a lot of them are, you know, between three and six or seven, and they just want to go play. And so, and I’ll check in with them periodically. Like in my mind, I can go there and they kind of like rush at me to like give me a hug. And they’re just like playing and free and joyful. So very often that’s what the part wants to do.

Victoria Kleinsman (44:33.67)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (44:37.135)
like especially an exile who to me, exiles often appear in my mind, like in a corner or a dark closet and they’re just kind of curled up and sad, you know, and it’s really cool to see this transformation and they just, they want to be kids. with protectors who have been like managers, like managing, your life, in various ways, which I would say like an eating disorder as a manager, right? They find that this is the job to do to help with.

staying away from the hurt. Or like angry parts, all of these. Or even honestly parts that are like anxious about having a perfect schedule, right? That’s like a part that like, I keep it all together, I’ll be okay. Once they realize that they don’t have these exiles to protect anymore, they sometimes want to just go play and then sometimes they’ll take on new roles. And again, it’s this trust that you have to then give them to tell you, like you can’t tell them what to do. You’ll ask them.

And that’s kind of the magical thing about parts work to me is so often I’ll get answers I’m not expecting, which helps me really believe that like they are their own being. So I will ask a part like, you know, um, and sometimes it’s a similar role. Like if I have a part that was like super anxious about scheduling and responding to emails and getting work perfect, like they will want to have, um, a similar role of like organizing and keeping things like neat, it’s like, it’s a totally different energy behind it. Um,

Victoria Kleinsman (45:40.954)
Thank

Mike (46:03.813)
and it comes from, I don’t know, just, enjoy it. They don’t feel anxious about it and there’s no fear behind it. And actually that could transition into one of our other things, which is like the fear versus love. But you can feel like they used to do this out of fear and now they do it out of love. And it’s often a similar behavior. Sometimes it’s completely different. I don’t personally have any strong examples of like a protector that flipped completely, but well.

Actually, there’s one that just came to mind. So I had a part that was quite judgmental and like with a little inner voice, wanted to like put other people down. And I can often hear the voice of, you know, like my dad or culture where people are seen as lesser. If they look a certain way or they’re disabled or skin color, you know, and you will have these judgments. And I had a part that like hated that part.

we need to be kind and open and nice. And there was like this battle, but it was interesting to find that the part that was judging when the inner child had been healed kind of wanted to do the opposite. Like he wanted to uplift and encourage people and other parts inside of me, where it might’ve used to sort of put them down. And I can’t remember, because some of parts work as a little beyond.

words, know, sometimes hard to find words for these things that are beyond that. So I can’t quite remember how to put into words, but there was, if I think about it, let you know, but it was cool to see like why he had been judging.

was how that became the same… Like behind the judgment was actually the desire to lift people up, even though it’s like the complete opposite thing. So you would think logically, why would you be putting people down when what you want is this? But it’s a learned behavior. It’s the only way he saw possible to exist and to be safe. anyway, parts can sort of become anything after healing.

Victoria Kleinsman (48:06.8)
Yeah.

Mike (48:12.295)
But I yeah, I do believe they have some sort of energy and autonomy of their own. I do find, you once the part’s healed, they’re not coming up all the time because they’re kind of, it feels like they’re living their own lives now almost, except for those that want to help. I mean, we do need parts to help us with, you know, organizing a schedule and making things happen in the real world that require some planning. Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (48:42.862)
I resonate so much with that because the part of me that was very controlling and very OCD and perfectionism and eating disorder energy, that’s healed and it now comes up to serve me. example, now I have Koa who’s now one when she’s having trouble at night and then I’m sleep deprived and I’ve got my day to continue with and clients to serve. That energy from a place of love can be like

Mike (49:01.104)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (49:12.43)
Right, you’ve got this. Really sorry you’re tired, but you can do it. It’s kind of very like, let’s get it done, but from a completely different intention than it was before, because I can still get shit done, and if I want to, I can just disassociate and block my needs and keep going. I don’t anymore, but I can keep going with the connection, but the energy of like, I get stuff done.

I can do uncomfortable stuff. It serves me now sometimes when it’s needed. And when it’s not needed, she’ll just chill in the background and be like, I’m here if you need me. When you want me to step up and be bit controlling and like, duh, duh, then I’m here for you, kind of.

Mike (49:49.254)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (49:54.971)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, sometimes we discount like that as all bad somehow, like control and being super organized. And I think it’s because we experienced it from this anxious perspective, right? When that part’s like afraid and it’s like, if I don’t do this, everything will fall apart as opposed to what you said. Like, it’s kind of like a cheerleader. They’re just like, let’s, let’s get it done. And like, let me help you and we’ll like get this super planned out. And yeah, it’s just a totally different energy, but the same behavior. And so.

Victoria Kleinsman (50:00.955)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (50:16.806)
You know that.

Victoria Kleinsman (50:25.296)
Yes.

Mike (50:25.572)
Yeah, I think it’s a really helpful check-in. You and I have spoken about, like, just from any action. Like, is this from fear or love? And it’s not that one’s bad and one’s good. I don’t want to say, like, it’s from fear. That’s a bad thing. Because actually what that means is, there’s a part here that needs me. So then it’s an opportunity to provide some love and check in. It is a really helpful little quick question, though, to know whether you’re sort of

in that self-energy, maybe with parts helping, as opposed to a part who’s afraid, who has taken over, if that makes sense.

Victoria Kleinsman (51:01.208)
Yes, yes, yes, yes, my audience, if they know me, they know. My favourite question is, is this thought, behaviour, action born from love or is it born from fear? And I have a question about fear, Mike. It’s came to me since we’ve been chatting. Do you think that at the root of all fear, it’s a fear of loss of something?

Mike (51:13.018)
Yeah.

Mike (51:38.19)
Yeah, I think so. Sometimes I need some time to experience the data, kind of check it out. So that might be a question that’ll be with me today as I notice. But I do when I think about any parts that I’ve been to.

very often, and I think it’s common for most people, a small inner child is afraid of losing their connection with family, right? And so various coping mechanisms and beliefs come in to be like, if I’m going to be included in this group that I call mom and dad and siblings or family, I have to behave a certain way and act a certain way and be a certain way. And at the root of that is this fear that…

Victoria Kleinsman (52:08.122)
Yeah.

Mike (52:25.893)
when I’ve asked my parts, like, what are you afraid will happen? And often you have to ask that question several times, because at first, like, what are you afraid will happen? Well, they’ll be mad at me. Okay, and what are you afraid will happen if they’re mad at you? Well, they might put me in my room and what, you know, eventually it comes down to like, they will leave me and abandon me. So I will lose them, right? So there is a loss. And I think of the big fear that many people have is like fear of death is a big one for people. And it’s like that, you’re losing what you think is your life, right?

I think if you explore deeply, you realize there is not a loss in death, but it feels like there’s going to be this loss that you don’t want. It’s a good question. would, yeah, from my experience and specifically thinking about parts and every time I get to the root of their fear.

Mike (53:19.749)
I do think there’s a loss. Because this one that I was working with recently was afraid of… Yeah, I mean, the family had literally left, like physically, so they were afraid of losing them, and like the family was going to die on this boat trip. And then there was a fear. Then I realized even beyond and deeper than that was just like, they made me feel like something was wrong with me by not coming, right, and by being afraid. And so then this part had inherited the belief that something is wrong with me and I’m broken.

Victoria Kleinsman (53:34.31)
Mmm.

Mike (53:48.783)
But at the root of that brokenness is that if I’m broken, then I can’t be… Well, yeah, then you’re not whole. Then you’ve lost something. You’ve lost your wholeness and you’ve lost your…

Victoria Kleinsman (53:58.47)
Mmm.

Mike (54:03.866)
I guess your connection, it feels like if you’re broken then you can’t be a part of your family anymore. Or you’ve lost who you should have been, you know. So I think, again, language is tough and it can be looked at from so many different ways. But I think loss is a good word for

Victoria Kleinsman (54:25.862)
Yeah, I mean that’s a good voice note question to you because then you would have reflected on it and I’m also going to reflect on it because it just came to me when you were sharing. You mentioned the word loss and then fear and then I was, my brain connected like, oh my god, I think that it, and all our listeners, if you just give yourself a bit of an experiment with this throughout the next week, every fear you have, ask like Mike said, like what are you afraid of? And then if that happened, what are you afraid of? And if that happened, what are you afraid of?

Mike (54:33.06)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (54:56.11)
I kind of almost want to guarantee intuitively here that it will be a fear of losing something. And then that’s where grief comes in. Because grief, in my personal opinion, I think is the hardest emotion to feel present with. Because there’s not really anything you can do about it. You know what I mean? Like it’s just…

Mike (55:03.109)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria Kleinsman (55:22.736)
grieving the loss of your old identity, grieving the loss of a person, grieving the loss of control that you had, and now it’s like grief, fuck in hell, grief.

Mike (55:36.133)
Yeah, I think we’ve spoken one of our messages about grieving, like how important of a step that is that often doesn’t happen. yeah, I mean, in life and from a perspective of your parts, like things are lost, right? And you have ideas. And so you kind of have to accept loss. And at the same time, even though this is paradoxical, like when you find this self and this nature, you realize that like

Victoria Kleinsman (55:53.776)
Yeah.

Mike (56:05.349)
Well, maybe it’s not that you haven’t lost anything, but that everything you need is here, right? Like you have it. Just because you lost something doesn’t mean you have to gain something else. the loss is actually…

Victoria Kleinsman (56:10.51)
Hmm.

Mike (56:18.424)
I it’s necessary and perhaps a freedom, although that’s a big leap to take. don’t necessarily want to, you don’t need to think of it as a good thing. It can just hurt, right? And so, yeah, there’s always a paradox I find when you find truth that like, yeah, you’re going to lose and also you have everything you need. it’s.

Victoria Kleinsman (56:40.022)
I love that. That just made me feel all warm inside because there’s so much truth in that. So yes, grieving is real, of course. And, because it’s both and, you’ve actually never lost anything because you’ve never had anything because you’ve got everything you need within this self or no self.

Mike (57:03.447)
Yeah, yeah, that’s about it. It sounds kind of, it’s hard to wrap your head around and I think that’s the point. You almost have to experience it. But if you listen to so many of like the spiritual mystics and guides, it’s like you end up at that same…

Victoria Kleinsman (57:12.518)
Yeah.

Mike (57:22.629)
point of like, you have everything you need, you’ve always had it, and you never lost it. It was just kind of an illusion. And yeah, so, and I think actually, that’s a quick comment that I struggled with. was like, well, if it’s an illusion, like, are my parts an illusion, which doesn’t feel good to me. I like to recognize my parts as actual defined beings and energy. But what was the illusion was the belief, right, that they took in or the burden that they’re carrying. Like it was, it’s real in that they

Victoria Kleinsman (57:28.302)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (57:50.403)
you know, you feel it, but it’s the illusion in that what they believe is not true, you know? And so I think a lot of healing is…

Victoria Kleinsman (57:56.921)
Yes.

Mike (58:05.061)
just, yeah, seeing what’s not true and then seeing what is true. But it’s, yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (58:12.398)
Yeah, it’s letting go of all the illusions because, I mean, I wish I had more time with you and I haven’t because of my daughter, but I want to say a few things and ask you something at the end. Healing is seeing through the illusions and coming to the ultimate truth that you are nothing and everything all at the same time.

Mike (58:42.008)
you

Victoria Kleinsman (58:42.17)
that even something positive or good is an illusion of perception, which also gives you power because something bad and painful, although very real inside your human body, is also just an illusion of perception. So that gives us the power to be truly free, to be either at the place of zero, which is nothing and everything, but then from that you can create.

Mike (59:08.611)
next

Victoria Kleinsman (59:10.99)
infinite possibility on how you choose to perceive yourself, the world.

Mike (59:17.474)
Yeah, yeah, I there was a book I saw called like useful not true, which is that often these beliefs and these things we think are true are not true, but you can they can be useful or not useful. So you get to choose what you believe, right? Exactly what you just said. So you can make an intentional decision to believe something and it could even be temporary. And later you say, well, now I believe this other thing. And it’s tough because people could see that as like, well, you could just make anything up.

and that is kind of true, but you can do it from, I don’t know, when you release yourself from that, you feel empowered, and then you can choose from that empowered place.

kind of make life what you want it to be.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:00:05.286)
Yeah, that’s so exciting and free. And we, you and I both know that and we’re still working on it because I think it’s a lifelong journey. The last thing I wanted to say, just again, it came to me as we were chatting. You know how we say a phrase like growing older? We don’t physically grow older. We kind of shrink older, but actually spiritually and emotionally we grow as we age.

Mike (01:00:28.088)
Thank

Victoria Kleinsman (01:00:34.394)
That’s just like a cool play on words. Like we’re growing older because we’re always growing and evolving and healing as we get older. Because literally it doesn’t make sense growing older because you’re not growing anymore. You’ve stopped physically growing. You’re deteriorating, right? Physically.

Mike (01:00:46.486)
interesting. Yeah.

Mike (01:00:51.876)
Physical body. I mean it has to eventually. Yeah, that’s interesting I think it’s a phrase that you just learn and take for granted But if you literally say growing older like yeah, that doesn’t make sense because you don’t grow Physically, but I think maybe it’s cool to see it from the internal world of growth, right and how you can You grow there Yeah, and I think when I’m in self like there is always this feeling of

expansion, right? Like vast sort of spaciousness and expansive, which feels like this growth. And I think that’s sort of like maybe speaks to that same concept.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:01:24.688)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:01:35.642)
Yeah, I mean I’ve loved this conversation Mike.

Mike (01:01:39.62)
Me too. Yeah, I could keep going, but I know we have to call it at some point. But it’s cool for me to see just quickly reflecting on that part who was afraid like I often have this part that feels like what am I going to say? I can’t think of anything. And yet it’s always like I could go for hours. So it’s nice to, you know, I’ll check in with that part, but it’s always nice to see that what you feared isn’t always the case.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:01:41.839)
Yeah.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:01:55.898)
Yes.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:02:08.742)
It usually isn’t, especially when you’ve got that connection, because we’re in connection together now, when you’ve got that connection with either your parts from self or and another person, the fear 99.9 % of the time never comes true.

Mike (01:02:14.787)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (01:02:27.0)
Yeah, great.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:02:30.406)
So lovely listeners, if you would like Mike on again, because we didn’t get into people pleasing, which is a big thing for you and I, we’re both recovering people pleases and all the other things that could come out of our natural conversation, let us know if you’d like him on again and I’m sure, I’m guessing that you’d be happy to come on again.

Mike (01:02:49.176)
Mm-hmm, I would.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:02:51.662)
Amazing. Well, thank you, Mike, for your energy and your love and your wisdom today.

Mike (01:02:57.038)
Yeah, thank you too. It’s really nice to see you and I look forward to more chats.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:03:03.162)
Yeah, me too. Well, much love to you and much love to our listeners. And everyone have a beautiful rest of your day, evening, morning, whatever it is you’re doing. Much love and namaste.

Victoria Kleinsman (01:03:16.518)
Well, that has stopped, I think. Can you see an upload percentage on your end? yours says 50%.