Victoria Kleinsman (00:01.838)
Welcome my loves to another episode. Thank you for being here. Do you know what? I’m just going to dive straight in this time without chattering about anything in particular to begin with. So as you already know, I’m sure the title of this episode is The Missing Piece in ED Recovery Why Pleasure is Non-negotiable. And this was inspired by the lovely Connie. I put a story box up about

questions or inspirations for a juicy podcast episode and she talked about the importance of pleasure because Connie and I have worked together and of course this is part of my work and I don’t think I’ve done, no I haven’t done a specific episode diving into it and all the juice so here we go. So in my opinion, and I’m gonna swear here because what’s new but I use swearing to help me with my emphasis and with my passion, pleasure is absolutely fucking essential.

to eat and disorder recovery, but a lot of people don’t really talk about that because with pleasure, I mean, what do you think of when you hear the word pleasure? For me, when I first started to hear the word pleasure in my kind of growth experience, it was always linked to sexual pleasure, but pleasure is so much more than that. I’m not just talking about sexual pleasure. I’m not just talking about pleasure around food, although of course we’re gonna go into the food pleasure, because that’s a big piece of the puzzle of eating disorder recovery.

I’m talking about life pleasure, like sensory pleasure, embodied pleasure, the kind of pleasure that makes you feel alive in your body rather than at war in it. And here’s why pleasure matters so much for recovery. You cannot heal from trauma and from eating disorder through discipline and willpower alone. You need pleasure in there.

your nervous system actually requires pleasure in order to heal and to thrive. So let’s dive in. Part one, why pleasure matters, the nervous system piece, which is the key piece here. So what I constantly see in my clients is that they’re doing all the right things, the recovery things, they’re eating unrestrictedly, they go into therapy, what my coaching kind of encompasses therapy as well. They’re doing the nervous system work, but they can’t.

Victoria Kleinsman (02:22.868)
not be very happy. I did an episode about I’ve recovered from my eating disorder so why am I not happy? I did that a few episodes ago so check that out. But they’re white knuckling their way through recovery and recovery is hard I’m not gonna lie like you do need a lot of discipline, a lot of willpower to get through recovery. It’s the hardest thing I’ve ever done. But again that’s why I’m talking about pleasure because we can’t only recover.

with willpower and swinging from our overwhelmed nervous system to be overwhelmed in one way and then underwhelmed, which is a sign of overwhelm just in the opposite direction. And again, I did an episode about exactly about that, which is the one I was just referring to. But with all that ramble, recovery is fucking hard. As I said, it’s the hottest thing that I’ve ever done. But recovery, because recovery is so hard,

Pleasure is so important because it brings recovery from a point A to B. It takes recovery from, have to get through this recovery season until I can then live my life and get on with my life. It takes away that like, my God, recovery seems so far away. How am I ever gonna start and how am I ever gonna get through this? Because a big part of my work is living now, going after the life you want now, even…

in the midst of recovery. Yes, you have to prioritise recovery, of course you do, but otherwise you identify as a person recovering from an eating disorder and never truly living your life. So as I was saying, recovery is really hard. You can absolutely do it. It’s just really hard. Although that might be a story. I found it really hard. Someone might have recovered, they might have found it easy. I don’t know, but I’m just speaking from my personal experience and that of my clients. And you can do hard things, by the way.

and it gets easier, unlike restriction, unless you have the genetics for anorexia, general restriction and dieting, it starts off easy, especially because you have all of the, my God, I’m losing weight, I feel in control, I’m being validated. It’s easy at the beginning and it gets harder and harder over time, whereas recovery is the opposite, it’s really hard at the beginning. It gets easier and easier. You do have a kind of an episode mid.

Victoria Kleinsman (04:48.334)
kind of recovery where your body’s changed and you’re like, what the fuck? And you know, you’re now feeling and you’re now not suppressing. So life stuff comes up and then it can get hard again. And again, everyone’s different, but it tends to get easier over time. But recovery takes you from being in your nervous system overwhelmed a lot of the time. I mean, that’s not the idea. You go in your stretch zone, but it’s facing your fears every day, right? So your body is in a constant state of threat for months.

And before that, in the eating disorder, your body was in a constant state of threat and stress for years and sometimes decades from fight to flight to freeze, stuck in survival mode. So to heal from the eating disorder and to heal your nervous system, your nervous system needs experience. It needs evidence of safety within itself. And you know what the primary signals of safety to your nervous system is?

Pleasure. Relaxation is the gateway to pleasure. Pleasure is the gateway to relaxation, however you want to look at it. In order to show your nervous system, it is safe. Pleasure is the way to go because you cannot experience pleasure when you feel unsafe and vice versa. So I’m going to dive into that here. When you experience genuine pleasure, and I mean embodied, sensual, my God, this feels so good, pleasure.

regardless of what it is that you’re doing, your nervous system gets the message, we’re safe, we’re not just surviving anymore, we can actually enjoy being alive. Pleasure activates your parasympathetic nervous system, your rest and digest mode, it tells your body, you don’t have to be on high alert, you can relax, you can receive, that’s a big one, receiving is a woman especially, you can enjoy without pleasure.

in your recovery journey, in your life in general, you’re trying to heal a dysregulated nervous system whilst keeping it in a state of deprivation. And that’s why so many people can get stuck in that quasi recovery place. They’re doing the behaviors, they’re eating more, they’ve gained weight, but they’re not actually living. They’re still in the identity trap of recovering from an eating disorder.

Victoria Kleinsman (07:14.678)
not going after and creating a life of their dreams, pardon the cringiness of whatever, however that sounds, it’s true. So part two is pleasure and trauma. Now, I wanna talk about the trauma piece because this is where it gets really important. If you’ve experienced trauma, and most people with eating disorders have indeed experienced trauma, even if it’s not capital T trauma, your relationship with pleasure has likely been damaged.

Trauma teaches you that pleasure is not safe. You don’t deserve pleasure. Pleasure will be taken away. Enjoying yourself means letting your guard down. Pleasure is selfish or indulgent. So you learn to exist in a state of hyper-village, hyper-villageance and deprivation. You learn to find safety in control, in achievement, in doing rather than simply being. You learn to deny yourself pleasure.

as a way of staying small, staying safe and staying acceptable. And then the eating disorder comes along and takes that to the extreme. It becomes the ultimate form of pleasure denial. Don’t enjoy food, don’t rest and don’t enjoy doing anything. Don’t take up space, don’t enjoy relaxing, don’t have needs, don’t feel good in your body or at least you’re trying to feel good about yourself by losing weight potentially but…

You know the score. The Eaton disorder convinces you that denying yourself pleasure is virtuous. That suffering is noble and that deprivation is discipline. Hands up, who resonates with that? I did in the past for sure. But the thing is, the truth, truth bomb, denying yourself pleasure is just another way of saying, I don’t deserve to be alive in a body that feels good. And you can’t heal from that belief.

whilst continuing to deprive yourself of pleasure. You have to be actively, intentionally, practising receiving pleasure as proof to your nervous system that you deserve to thrive and not just survive. Let’s just take a like pleasurable, pun intended, like cleansing breath, like just allow your chest to expand.

Victoria Kleinsman (09:38.764)
your heart to expand, your throat to expand, your tummy to be soft. Allow your body to relax and then just allow breath in. And just a relaxed way, not a like, I’ve got to take like a full breath and I’m still got my throat closed and it’s hard, just like opening up and then receiving the breath.

Victoria Kleinsman (10:04.726)
Okay, thank you for doing that with me if you did. All right, part three, the soul self versus the suppressed self and pleasure. You’ve heard me talk about the soul self and the suppressed self many times, because it’s my framework of recovery. One of them, I’ve got the real recovery roadmap, which of course encompasses the soul self and the suppressed self. Your suppressed self is the part that is shaped by trauma, societal conditioning, the eating disorder,

And it believes that pleasure is earned through productivity, weight loss, or quote, being good, end quote. Rest and enjoyment are lazy. If you’re enjoying yourself, you should be doing something more useful. Pleasure is indulgent or pointless. You need to suffer to be worthy of any pleasure. Your soul self, your authentic free self knows

Pleasure is your fucking birthright. Joy and enjoyment are essential to being human. Rest is productive. You deserve to feel good in your body just because you’re alive and you have a body. What a gift. And pleasure is how you connect a life force and aliveness within the world and within your life. The eating disorder keeps you trapped in your suppressed self.

by making pleasure feel dangerous or undeserved. Recovery is about reconnecting with your soul self. The part of you that knows pleasure isn’t something you earn, it’s something you are. Part four, food pleasure. Not just food pleasure though, obviously. So let’s talk about food pleasure specifically. This is often where resistance comes up first. Because in eating disorder recovery, you must reclaim.

pleasure with food. Not just eating food for fuel, not just mechanically eating, although you have to do that at the beginning of anorexia recovery, especially mechanical eating, but actually allowing yourself to enjoy what you eat. So that means always for the rest of your life, choosing food that tastes good, that are not just healthy options. My philosophy,

Victoria Kleinsman (12:28.652)
that’s probably a too strong word, in how I nourish myself, how I eat now, after recovery and after having an eating disorder and all that, is nourishment and pleasure. If something is nourishing to me but it doesn’t bring me pleasure, I’m not gonna eat it or drink it. If something is only pleasurable and not entirely nourishing, again, it depends on how you define nourishment, because for example, chocolate, which I love, brings me a lot of pleasure.

It is nourishing because it has fats and carbs and it’s pleasurable to the soul and the senses. But I’m talking about like nourishment in terms of like all these vitamins and minerals and all the things that make you feel amazing in your body, like nourishingly wise, that’s not the right word I wanted to use, but you know what I mean. So my philosophy is nourishment and pleasure. And if I have to choose one or the other, it’s gonna be pleasure over only nourishment. So I digress, but choosing foods that taste good, not just healthy options.

very key, enjoying things because you want them, not because they fit into your plan or your controlled list of what you’re allowed, savouring the experience rather than disassociating through meals, that’s really key. And this is different too, because when I was restricting, I used to savour every bit of food I had and eat it so slowly and with the tiniest teaspoon I could find. I know you know what I’m talking about. Let me get my drink.

I used to just spend so much time, like, because I was limiting myself, I was restricting myself, and I wanted to make the food part that it allowed myself to have last as long as possible, because I was afraid that it wasn’t going to be enough because it never fucking was. But this is different. Savouring the experience now of food that I have in abundance, yeah, I take my time, but not like I did in Eat and Disorder restrictive land.

where I was like obsessed with taking my time. It’s just like, if I’m putting a cookie in my mouth and someone asks me a question, I ain’t gonna answer until I’ve like, wait a minute, and I enjoy the cookie, swallow, okay, ask me the question again, like that kind of pleasure. Like I’m talking about being present with your food. Letting yourself have seconds or thirds if you want, if it tastes amazing, and that’s the only reason why, and not compensating after eating something pleasurable.

Victoria Kleinsman (14:52.558)
punishing yourself in order to balance out the pleasure that you’ve had. And I know this is scary. I know that eating disorder will be screaming at you. Things like if you let yourself enjoy food, you’ll lose control. You’ll never stop eating. You’ll gain infinite weight. But here’s what actually happens. When you consistently allow yourself food pleasure without restriction, your body learns to trust that pleasure is always available.

And when pleasure is always available, you don’t need to binge on it or hoard it or feel out of control around it either. Restriction never works, allowance always does. The obsession with food comes from deprivation of the food and deprivation from pleasure, the deprivation of not allowing yourself to have pleasure. But, and this is important, food pleasure alone is not enough because if food is your only source of pleasure in your life,

then yes, you might become obsessed with it. If eating is the only time that you let yourself feel good and feel soft and feel like you’re receiving something, then of course you’re going to turn to food constantly. And there’s nothing wrong with this. I want you to hear me loud and clear. And this was exactly me. Food after kind of towards the end of recovery and then when I’d recovered, food was like…

It was a bit sad really, but it was like the only thing in my life that brought me serious pleasure. I didn’t really want to go out anywhere unless there was a lot of pleasurable food involved. I didn’t want to go for a walk with a friend, I just wanted to just eat because it brought me so much pleasure. And that makes sense as well because of all the deprivation and the restriction that I’ve done in the past and now all this allowance and new into recovery. It makes sense that I’d be having it because I can now and because it’s safe too and…

because I’ve missed it and there’s a part of my nervous system that is afraid it’s gonna get taken away from me again and all the things, but this couldn’t be forced from me. So I was thinking like when I’d recovered, I was like, well, I’ve recovered because I’m free around food. I can eat what I want when I want. I’ve made peace with my body. gained weight. My body kind of has its set point now, no matter how much I eat, because I eat unrestrictedly always, it just stays the same sort of size. But like,

Victoria Kleinsman (17:13.248)
is this gonna be my life? Like I’m still gonna be kind of obsessed with food. And I made peace with that. I was like, you know what? If this is my life and I’m kind of still a bit obsessed with like processed foods and sweet stuff, cause it just brings me so much pleasure and joy. I’m fine with that. I’m cool with that because the alternative is to beat myself up about it, which will make me feel shit and I’ll do it anyway. And then actually not receive the pleasure I’m trying to get from it. And then I’ll feel bad or restriction, which leads me back to a life of hell.

and suppressing myself and I ain’t doing that either. So I fully allowed myself to have food as like my only main source of pleasure in my life. And then very organically, I just started to explore what I wanted from my life and that’s when I started my business. What would make me happy and bring me pleasure alongside food, never instead of food? And I’m gonna go into this now because we need pleasure beyond food.

We need a life full of sensory embodied pleasures that make you want to be alive in your body. And again, let me reiterate here. If you are in a stage where food is the only thing that kind of means a lot to you and you’re eating unrestrictedly, mentally unrestrictedly, as well as physically unrestrictedly, and you have been for months and months now, and you would say you’re fully recovered, it’s okay, I was in your position. It does change organically, not when you force it, you just have to fully allow it.

fully embrace it, accept it, and then the next piece will come naturally because you’re a human, so it will. So trust that and surrender to that. So part five, what pleasure looks like beyond food? What does that look like? What does pleasure look like beyond just food? And this can be different for everyone, because of course everyone’s different, but some examples, I’ve put some of my favorites and some of my clients’ favorites, some sensory pleasures.

Could be textures like soft blankets and silk pajamas or warm baths and like, I love the feeling of the grass under your bare feet. It can be scents and smells like candles, essential oils, flowers, baking, baking bread, baking cookies. Could be sounds, music that makes you want to move, rain on the window, the birds chirping.

Victoria Kleinsman (19:36.974)
that kind of thing. Sight, so using your eyes. Art, nature, that does it for me all the time, nature. Beautiful spaces, colours that make you feel alive. And touch, massage, soft touch, hugs, stretching. So I have a massage pillow, one of those ones, I think they were like 30 quid from Amazon or something.

and that’s just so nice and it’s a heated one as well and you can put it on all different parts of your body and whenever I get five minutes to myself which is lol a joke but I did it the other day when Koaw was like on my knee reading a book and I was just like this is so good like someone’s relaxing my back with a heated massage thingy as I’m doing this so that was really pleasurable to me we have someone come to the house once a month to actually give us a massage we’re very privileged that we can do that that is really pleasurable to me music, smells

All the things that make you kind of go, that kind of noise. Yeah, in fact, pleasure could be defined as the noise of, you know, because you’re doing those kinds of noises in the bedroom if you’re allowing yourself to be in pleasure and if it feels good. It can be movement pleasure as well. So not exercising for calories or punishment or anything like that, but dancing in your living room just because the song feels good and you want to dance to it.

stretching because your body, I do yoga but I only do no standing yoga for now because I’m in recovery from my over tight, over trained pelvic floor. So I’m doing a lot of like relaxation and stretches and sometimes it hurts a little bit so I don’t go over my window of tolerance with the stretching but when it fits just right and I’m like, that’s just so nice. There’s that sound again. So I’m curious if you have the same kind of way that not sound, yeah, a sound.

that shows you that you’re in pleasure right now. Swimming because water feels incredible on your skin. Walking because of fresh air makes you feel alive. I’m take a sip of my drink. Sorry for those that are not watching the video.

Victoria Kleinsman (21:45.166)
It’s just splashed in my eye, lol. Creative pleasure. Making art with no purpose or no outcome, that is the key. Writing for the joy of it, not for productivity, not to create something for your followers, not to write a book, just to write for the sake of writing. Cooking or baking as a creative expression, not meal prep, not because you’re afraid of cookies, so you’re cooking, you’re baking them, which is actually a good point, definitely.

cook, bake cookies if you’re afraid of cookies to get you over that fear. like not baking because, I’ve got someone coming around, so I’m gonna bake. Just bake just because you wanna bake. That’s enough. Gardening, crafting, decorating, whatever floats your boat, playing music, singing in the shower. You can have relational pleasure, deep conversations that make you feel seen. That is a skill that you can work on.

laughing until you cry with friends, but obviously you can’t force the laughing part, that comes naturally. Intimacy and connection, sex, being held or holding someone that you love and quality time without an agenda, without a this is what we’re gonna do, just being like, you know what, you and I have got time together, let’s see what happens, relaxing into that and rest pleasure, this is very key to all of you listening.

Napping just because it feels delicious to nap. Lying in bed doing absolutely nothing just because you can. Reading for pure enjoyment. I started reading fantasy novels, just started during my pregnancy actually, my God, why did I not start sooner? I’m reading the set of, the first book is A Court of Thorn and Roses, and the third book, so good.

And the ones before that, my God, I was obsessed with, what were they? Fourth Wing, that wasn’t what I’m talking about. They’re really good, the Fourth Wing series. But also the series of Blood and Ash. my God, check them out. Trust me and you’re welcome. Where was I? Yeah, reading just for the sake of reading, not personal development always. And watching shows, doing a Netflix binge guilt free. Why would you feel guilty for just watching something that-

Victoria Kleinsman (24:07.756)
you know, you feel good watching and saying no to things so you can do nothing. had a client one time, my God, it was such a powerful thing she said, I actually met up with her. This was so random and so aligned, like she was from London and she lived in New York and I’m from Derby in England and live in the Netherlands and I was going to London, I think I went to London with my mom, this was before I was pregnant, yeah it was, I went to London with my mom for the weekend just for some mom daughter time and my client who,

lives in New York but was from London was literally in London the same weekend so we met up for a drink and she was sharing like how you know how far she’d come since we’ve been coaching and that her friend said to her are you free on Friday night whatever it was the week before she was describing this to me and she said she answered to her friend she said I’m free on Friday night but I’m not available because I’ve got a date with myself at home and I was like hell yeah

So say no to things so you can just be with yourself. Like that’s also choosing what you want and what you need most. The key here is to have all of the things, excuse me, I’ve spoken so much recently, I think my voice is going not good. The key here is to do pleasure, is to engage in pleasure, is to receive pleasure for the sake of pleasure itself.

not as another achievement or a productivity tool or something to tick off, it’s to enjoy pleasure for the sake of enjoying pleasure. So not I’m taking a bath so I can tick it off my self-care list, but I’m taking a bath because the warm water on my skin feels so damn good and it’s so relaxing. Not I’m going for a walk to get my steps in or I’m going for a walk for my mental health, but…

I’m going for a walk because the sun on my face makes me feel so alive and I just love the nature path that I’m gonna walk on. Can you see the difference? One is self-achievement orientated and the other is pure embodied pleasure, just for the sake of it. So part six, why high achievers struggle with pleasure. Now, if you’re a high achieving woman, which most of my clients are, pleasure feels really uncomfortable at first because high achievers have been conditioned to believe

Victoria Kleinsman (26:31.042)
Your worth comes from what you produce. Rest is earned through productivity. Pleasure is a reward, not a baseline. And if you’re doing something useful, no, if you’re not doing something useful, then you’re wasting your time. You’ve been taught that your value is external in your achievements, in your body, in your productivity. So the idea of just being and experiencing pleasure without it serving a purpose, it feels wrong.

But here’s the thing, you cannot heal from an eating disorder while still operating from the achiever identity. You can’t. The eating disorder is an achievement disorder, if you like. It’s trying to achieve the perfect body, the perfect amount of control, the perfect discipline. It’s driven by the same never enough energy that drives overwork, people pleasing and perfectionism. And society praises it, which is fucked up.

Recovery requires you to untangle your worth from your achievements and pleasure is how you practise that. So when you allow yourself pleasure, just because, with no productivity attached, you’re proving to yourself, I deserve to feel good simply because I’m alive, not because I earned it. And that’s revolutionary work because the only way your nervous system and brain learns are by…

you showing it with evidential experience that it can be true. And that’s the hard part because you have to do it even when it feels wrong and uncomfortable consistently until it becomes true for you. It’s that simple. It’s just not easy. So part seven, pleasure and the body, the hardest part. So the elephant in the room, let’s address that, right? How the fuck are you supposed to experience embodied pleasure when you hate your body?

This is where most people get stuck. This is where I definitely got stuck in the past. They think that I’ll allow myself pleasure once my body looks the way I want it to. I can’t enjoy being in my body at this weight. But that’s backwards, right? I know it doesn’t feel backwards, but it is. You can’t wait to love your body or to even accept your body, because that’s part of the recovery work, before you experience pleasure in it.

Victoria Kleinsman (28:57.548)
you have to experience pleasure in your body to actually accept it. They go hand in hand. Let me explain why. Your body image isn’t going to shift through willpower or positive affirmations. It shifts through embodied experiences that create new neural pathways. So every time you experience genuine pleasure in your body, a delicious meal that you allow yourself to enjoy without guilt afterwards, a warm bath, dancing, stretching,

comfortable soft clothes, being touched, you’re sending a message to your nervous system that this body can feel good. This body is capable of pleasure. So over time, those experiences accumulate and your brain starts to associate your body with pleasure rather than just punishment and something you need to control to feel safe.

it starts to associate your body with aliveness rather than just the chronic shame you’ve been living in forever. You don’t have to love your body or accept your body to allow it to feel good. You have to be willing to let pleasure in even when you’re struggling with body image, okay? This is what I mean by act as if. Act as if you deserve it even if you don’t believe it yet.

Once you do this over and over again, you’ll look back and you’ll be like, wow, this shit does work. So choose the soft pajamas, even though you hate how you look in them. Take the bath, even though you don’t want to be naked. Dance, even though you feel uncomfortable in your skin. This is the hard work and this is the work that matters. Because pleasure is the bridge between hating your body and accepting it.

Part eight, what pleasure actually feels like and clearing space for it, because that’s important too. So here’s something really important we need to address. If you’ve been disconnected from your body for years, you might not actually know what pleasure feels like anymore, or even at all. You might be so used to operating in survival mode, so used to discomfort and pain and just tolerating your existence.

Victoria Kleinsman (31:18.04)
that you’ve forgotten what genuine pleasure actually feels like in your body. So let me describe it in the best possible way that I can describe it. Pleasure feels like a softening in your chest or your belly, your shoulders just dropping away from your ears, a gentle warmth spreading through your body, your breath naturally organically deepening and slowing.

A subtle mmm sensation, like your body is saying, yes, more of this, like I was saying, doing earlier. Time slowing down or just disappearing. Your mind quieting, so you’ve got less chatter, more presence, more stillness. A tingling or aliveness in your skin. Muscles relaxing and releasing tension that you didn’t even know you were holding or bracing.

and an expansion rather than a contraction. And pleasure is not intense or overwhelming, that might be activation or anxiety. Pleasure is not something you have to force or convince yourself you’re experiencing. Pleasure is not a performance, it’s not, should be enjoying this, therefore I’m in pleasure, no. Pleasure is not followed by guilt or shame. If it is,

That’s the fear, the eating disorder, talking, not genuine pleasure. So if you’re used to chronic pain, discomfort and dissatisfaction, your nervous system has adapted to that as your baseline. You might be tolerating clothes that dig in or feel restrictive, a constant state of hunger or deprivation, physical discomfort from over-exercising, chronic tension in your body, environments that stress you out.

relationships that drain you, a schedule that leaves no room for rest, and a constant internal voice criticizing you. When discomfort and pain are your baseline, you don’t have capacity to receive pleasure even when it’s offered to you. Your nervous system is too busy managing the pain to register the good. That’s why so many people to inst- Le? Slow down. That’s why-

Victoria Kleinsman (33:40.044)
So many people struggle to just enjoy things, in recovery especially. It’s not that there’s anything wrong with you, it’s that your baseline is still set to suffering and you need to actively clear the space for pleasure. So let’s do an inventory then. So what in your life is bringing you pain, discomfort or dissatisfaction that you’re just currently tolerating? And I want you to write this down, I want you to think

broadly here, physically, emotionally, relationally, environmentally. Write these down, physical discomfort, might be clothes that don’t fit or feel uncomfortable, chronic hunger from restriction, being cold all the time because you won’t let yourself eat enough, physical pain from over-exercising and under-nourishing, uncomfortable furniture, uncomfortable bed, uncomfortable workspace, harsh lighting or loud environments.

Emotional discomfort might look like relationships that feel draining or one-sided. People pleasing that leaves you exhausted. anxiety or hypervigilance. Chronic pain or, sorry, chronic guilt or shame. Never feeling enough. Environmental dissatisfaction. Living in a space that just doesn’t feel good.

Cluttered, chaotic or overstimulated surroundings. No quiet or private space for yourself. Schedules packed with obligations as no white space. Relational pain might look like friendships where you give more than you receive, always. Family dynamics that activate your eating disorder. Partners who don’t understand or support your recovery. And workplaces that glorify hustle culture and diet talk.

The mental emotional pain of the eating disorder itself, course, constant food noise, thoughts and obsession, body checking and comparison, compensatory behaviours, the voice that tells you you’re just never enough, not good enough. And here’s what I want you to do. Make a list. What are you tolerating that does not have to be this way? Not everything will be changeable immediately.

Victoria Kleinsman (36:02.616)
but some things absolutely can be eliminated or modified to reduce pain and create space for pleasure. So for example, instead of tolerating clothes that dig in and don’t fit right, buy comfortable clothes to fit your current body, even if you hate doing it. Soft fabrics, no waistbands that restrict, nothing that makes you hyper aware of your body in an uncomfortable way.

A lot of people say things like, you know, I don’t want to spend more money buying bigger clothes or clothes that fit me. Well, yeah, I get that, but if you were to magically lose weight and drop two dress sizes, I’m sure you’d be excited to go and buy new clothes then in the same financial situation as you’re in now, right? Thought so. So instead of tolerating chronic hunger, eat enough. Eat consistently. Eat when it’s scary. Eat.

Unrestrictedly, because hunger is pain and you can’t experience pleasure when your body is in a state of deprivation. Instead of tolerating draining relationships, excuse me, set boundaries, limit contact, say no. No is a complete sentence. Your energy is precious and recovery requires you to be precious with it.

Instead of tolerating a chaotic environment, create one small space that feels calm and good. Even if it’s just your bed made nicely with soft new sheets or one corner of a room that feels peaceful that you can retreat to. Instead of tolerating the eating disorder voice, start externalizing it, give it a name, talk back to it, separate you from it because it is not you.

Instead of tolerating a packed schedule, always doing, deliberately create white space. Even if you have to block it in your schedule as white space for me, whatever the fuck I’m gonna be doing, I don’t know. Say no to things, protect your rest time like it’s sacred because it is. These principles, like I’ve just described, that’s it really. Every bit of pain or discomfort you remove, create space,

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for pleasure to land. So every bit of pain or discomfort that you’re tolerating and you remove it out of your life or change it, it then creates space for pleasure to be received. If your nervous system is constantly managing discomfort, it doesn’t have the capacity to register pleasure. But when you’re actively reducing the pain points, even small ones, you’re telling your nervous system, we’re making space for good things now, we’re allowed to feel better.

than this. This is not about perfection or creating a perfect life that doesn’t exist. It’s about being honest, about what’s genuinely bringing you pain, that you have agency to change and making those changes as an act of self-love and choosing you. Because here’s what I do know. You’ve been tolerating pain for so long that you think it’s just how life is.

You think you’re supposed to just push through, to just deal with it, to be grateful you’re alive at all. But that’s your suppressed self-talking, my love. That’s the part of you that learned to make yourself small and uncomfortable to survive. Because it actually feels safe being in struggle and pain instead of expansion and relaxation and pleasure until you show yourself it isn’t. It is safe to be in relaxation, expansion and pleasure.

Your soul self knows she’s in there. Your soul self knows that you’re allowed to feel good. You’re allowed to remove sources of pain. You’re allowed to create a life that actually feels pleasurable to inhibit. So do the inventory, get honest about what hurts and start making changes. Small ones to begin with, big ones. Whatever is within your control, start now. Clear the space.

Make room for pleasure physically, emotionally, spiritually, mentally. Let your nervous system experience what it feels like when life doesn’t have to hurt all the time. That’s the work. Part nine, pleasure, fun and playfulness, healing your inner child. So something that’s connected to pleasure but has a slightly different energy. I’m talking about fun and playfulness here. Pleasure can be quiet and sensory, a warm bath.

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soft music, gentle touch, but fun and playfulness is a bit of a different vibe. That’s lightness, that’s silliness, that’s doing things for absolutely no reason other than they make you laugh or feel joy. And here’s why this is so fucking crucial again for eating disorder recovery. Most people with complex trauma and eating disorders never had enough opportunity as children to just be playful, to have fun and to be silly.

either because it wasn’t safe to be carefree, you had to be hypervigilant all the time, you were parentified, so you were taking care of your caregivers instead of playing and being a child, you were taught that silliness was childish or embarrassing, there was too much chaos or instability to relax into play, and you learned early that your worth came from being good and achieving or looking a certain way, not from being joyful.

So you grew up without that essential development experience of just playing, of doing things for no reason other than that they’re fun, of being silly without worrying how you look and laughing until you wee yourself or you snort snort down your face or whatever it is. And here’s what happens when you miss that crucial aspect of play. You’re in a child, there’s younger parts of you that are still alive inside of you today.

never got to be just a kid. They never got to feel safe enough to be carefree. They’re still waiting for permission to play, to be silly, to have fun without it meaning anything or achieving anything. In recovery, we have to give out inner children what they didn’t get. This isn’t just some woo-woo concept. This is legitimate trauma healing work here. When you engage in playful, fun activities as an adult,

You’re literally re-parenting those younger parts of you. You’re showing them it’s safe now. You can be silly. You can laugh. You can do things just because they’re fun. And when your inner children start to feel safe enough to play, something magical happens. Your nervous system relaxes because play and safety go hand in hand. You can only trust play when your nervous system…

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Sorry, you can only truly play, you can always trust play. You can only truly play when your nervous system believes that you’re safe. Think about it, if you’re in a war zone, literally in a physical war zone, you’re not gonna be playing, you? Because you know you’re not safe. So your nervous system, if it has an environment of danger due to your trauma, small T trauma, big T traumas, whatever it is, not being accepted as a child, all those things.

you’ll be living in danger even though you’re not actually in danger. So you can only truly play and have fun and experience and receive pleasure when you feel safe within yourself. Otherwise it doesn’t make sense from a survival point of view. So what does this actually look like then? It looks like doing things that would make your five, six, seven, eight, whatever age self absolutely delighted.

Coloring books with no rules about staying in the lines. Jumping in puddles, I do that. Or dancing in the rain. Making silly voices or faces in the mirror to your friends if they’re down with this playfulness too. Building blanket forts. I mean, if you have kids, this one’s probably easier to do. Well, all of them are easy, but you know what I mean. Like you can do these things for yourself. Playing with Play-Doh or slime or craft supplies. How much did you used to love doing that?

Blowing bubbles, singing loudly to your favourite songs, even if you’ve got a shit singing voice, playing board games or card games, getting on swings at the park, yes, even as an adult, having a tea party with stuffed animals, like I’m being serious, why not? Watching cartoons or kid films that make you laugh, making up silly stories or just telling awful jokes, playing dress up or trying on ridiculous outfits, just because.

skipping instead of walking, I also do that sometimes, making a mess with paint or with clay or just in general just making a mess just because you can and because you probably had to be perfect all the time as a child. The key is, it’s not what it is, it’s these activities serve absolutely no purpose other than fun. Not I’m colouring for mindfulness or I’m dancing for exercise, no. Just because I’m just wanting pure,

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pointless, joyful, joyful fun. And I know what’s coming up for you right now perhaps, but I’m an adult, that’s childish. People will think I’m weird. I should be doing something productive. I don’t have time for this, this feels stupid. Well, that should suppress self-talking. The part of you that learned it’s not safe to be playful, that you have to be serious and productive and achieve things in order to be worthy. That’s not true.

Your soul self and your inner children are crying out for this. You’re exhausted from being serious all the time, from achieving and performing and masking and trying to be perfect, right? From the eating disorder controlling every moment of your day, your children just want to fucking play, your inner children. So here’s what happens when you start incorporating play and fun into your life.

Your nervous system gets proof that life isn’t all threat and survival. When you’re genuinely laughing and playing, your body releases oxytocin, dopamine, endorphins, all the good chemicals that signal safety and connection and joy. Your inner children start to trust you. They realize you’re not going to keep them trapped in a serious, controlled, achievable, focused life forever.

they start to believe that maybe, just maybe, life can actually be enjoyable. You create distance from the eating disorder. The eating disorder is deadly serious. Think of the way it talks to you in your head, Jesus Christ, just lighten up a bit. It doesn’t play, it doesn’t laugh, it doesn’t do things just for fun. So when you engage in playfulness, you’re actively choosing your soul self over your eating disorder self.

which isn’t actually a self at all. It’s just a part of you that was adapted due to your trauma in your past to survive. was a, back in the day when it was created, it was a healthy coping mechanism, but it just is not serving you anymore. You remember who you are beyond the trauma and the eating disorder. Underneath all the pain, all the control, all the overachieving, there’s a part of you that’s creative and silly and joyful.

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Playfulness helps you recreate and reconnect with that part of you that’s already there, always have been there. And here’s the beautiful thing about fun and playfulness. It’s contagious. When you start allowing yourself to be playful, you give other people permission to do the same. You create a space where joy is allowed and welcomed, where stillness is celebrated, where being carefree

isn’t seen as irresponsible, but is essential to being human. So here’s what I want you to do. Think back to when you were a child, whatever ages come to you, what did you love before the trauma, before the eating disorder, before you learned you had to be serious and controlled? And you know, some people don’t know a life without trauma. Some people experience trauma like in the womb and from birth.

and that’s just heartbreaking, but you can still do this exercise because what would you have loved to have enjoyed doing as a child? Because that inner child is within you, inner children are within you and they have something to say to you. So what made you laugh or what did you want to make you laugh? What made time disappear? What activities did you do or want to do purely because they were fun or seemed fun?

Maybe it was drawing or painting, playing make believe or dressing up, building things with Lego, climbing trees, collecting things like rocks or shells or stickers, making up songs or dances. Oh my God, I did so much of that before the eating disorder of stuff, obviously. Playing with animals safely, celebrating. God, I’m getting my words mixed up.

creating a laboratory, imaginative words. I think I did that too. Whatever it was, do that or find the adult equivalent of that. And when you do it, notice the resistance. Notice the voice that says, this is stupid or I should be doing something productive. That’s not you. That’s the part of you that learned that it wasn’t safe to play. It is safe. It’s essential to play.

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And tell that part, you know what, I hear you. You’re trying to keep me safe by keeping me serious and controlled, but we’re safe now. You’re allowed to have fun, we’re allowed to play and then play anyway. Because your inner children deserve it, your nervous system needs it and your recovery depends on it, truly. You can’t heal from an eating disorder whilst keeping yourself in a prison of seriousness and control.

You have to let yourself be light. You have to let yourself laugh. You have to let yourself play and be messy and imperfect. That’s where true freedom lies. In the moments where you’re so engaged in fun that you forget to monitor yourself, to control yourself. You forget you’re supposed to be achieving anything at all, because you’re not. So go and play queens. Your inner child are waiting. Right, we’re getting to the end of this episode now.

Part 10 is practical steps. So how do you actually start to bring more pleasure into your life, especially if it feels really uncomfortable or really unfamiliar or even really unsafe? Step one is you get curious about what actually brings you pleasure, not what you think should bring you pleasure, not what brings other people pleasure, what genuinely feels good for you. And if you don’t know, just explore, get to know yourself, like trial and error this.

Make a list. What did you love as a child before you learned to suppress your desires? What activities make time disappear? What sensory experiences make you go, mm, that’s nice? What makes you smile without even trying? What makes you laugh when you were younger? And again, if you didn’t have any of these experiences or playfulness or pleasure when you were younger,

Tune into your inner children and make this up. They have the answers for you. Number two, when you’ve written that list of like what might feel good to you, start microdosing pleasure. You don’t have to overhaul your whole life, start small. It can be as little as light a candle when you’re journaling or eating breakfast. Put on a song you love and actually listen to it. Don’t just do other things as you’re listening.

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Wear the soft jumper instead of the scratchy one. Wear the pajamas that actually feel so comfy even though you think they look the worst. Take minutes to just stretch your body. If your back’s tight, do something about it. Don’t just endure it. Do a silly thing that makes you laugh. The goal is to practice receiving pleasure in small, manageable doses. Step three is notice the resistance.

When you try to do something pleasurable, notice what comes up. It might be guilt. It might be unworthiness. I don’t deserve this pleasure. The guilt might be saying, I should be doing something productive right now. I’ve got so much to do. Why am I wasting time with having fun or being silly? Fear might come up. If I let myself do this, something bad will happen. Discomfort. This feels too good. I need to stop. This is not safe.

or embarrassment. This is childish, people will think I’m weird. Don’t try to fix the resistance, don’t try to push it away. Just notice it. Say to the part of you that’s resisting, I hear you. Again, you’re trying to keep me safe, but I’m choosing pleasure anyway. I’ve got you, we’ve got this. You can stand down, it’s okay. And step four is practice pleasure with food specifically. Choose food.

All the time, or at least one meal a day if you need to start there. That’s purely for enjoyment and has nothing to do with nutrition. Eat something just because it sounds delicious, not because it’s balanced. Slow down and actually taste your food instead of disassociating. Allow seconds or thirds if you’re enjoying the food. Don’t compensate afterwards. Step five is to add playfulness to your wheat.

So choose one playful activity per week, even if it’s just 10 minutes. Do something that your eight year old self would think was fun. Let yourself be silly without performing or documenting it. Notice how your body feels. This one is key. Notice how your body feels when you’re genuinely playing. Number six is build a pleasure practice. We need to be intentional about this. We need to make this non-negotiable. One pleasurable activity per day.

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No multitasking, being fully present in that, whatever it is that you’re doing. No earning it, no justifying it, just receive it. So let’s say pleasure for you is having a chocolate brownie at a cafe alone. Do that without being like, I’ll just go on a walk first, or I’ll just go to the gym first and I’ll be able to enjoy it even more. No, do it just because.

and I can see in the window, my god I wish I could show you, this is hilarious, my husband is jumping up and down and dancing and literally twirling around, obviously entertaining my daughter, and he’s a full grown ass man and he’s just really funny and cute to see, sorry about that. He’s having fun and playing, yes he’s entertaining my daughter, but I know he’s having fun because sometimes he’s got these dance things that does that Ko is not even looking at him, he’s doing it anyway.

and he’s got these building blocks that we bought for her and he loves building them so his inner child is out to play as well. Anyway, just, it’s kind of very aligned that I saw that right now. Numbers, have I said, yeah, notice how your body feels when you’re genuinely playing and having fun. Step, no, I’m kind of backing up on myself. Anyway, I might be repeating myself, who cares? Step six is build a pleasure practice. Yes.

Be fully present in the pleasure of practice. No earning it, just receiving it. And number seven is to get support. This work is hard to do alone. Whether it’s therapy, coaching, or community, just plugging it here I have a free community. I also have a paid community, which is 295 euros and you get access to every single program I’ve ever created, hundreds of hours of live coaching, call recordings, so much more. So just saying.

find people who understand that pleasure is essential to life and to recovery. So part 11, what happens when you prioritise pleasure? So what actually changes in your life when you start consistently allowing yourself pleasure, fun and playfulness? Your nervous system regulates. You’re no longer stuck in chronic stress mode. Your body starts to feel safe. Anxiety decreases.

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Sleep improves, digestion works better. Your relationship with food normalises. When food isn’t your only source of pleasure, you stop obsessing over it. You can enjoy food without losing control, although that’s a shit word to say because you don’t actually have control over anything in your life and definitely not around food. So if you want to be in control around food, then you’re missing the boat because

The point of a free relationship with food is to not have control on purpose and to let it be natural and intuitively, to let it be natural and intuitive and pleasure and nourishment driven. So when food is abundant and you’re eating unrestrictedly and it’s not scarce and you’re not in restriction, your relationship with food normalises. Your body image improves not because your body changes,

but because you have positive embodied experiences that create new associations, your body becomes a source of pleasure rather than just shame or something to control in order to feel safe and worthy. You reconnect with your soul self. You start to remember who you are beyond the eating disorder, beyond the achiever, beyond the person who’s always performing. You remember what it actually feels like just to be.

You? Your inner children start to heal. Those younger parts of you that have been waiting for permission to play, to be silly, to have fun, they’re getting finally what they really need and what they needed. And when they feel safe and cared for, they stop controlling your life through the eating disorder. They stop being so afraid that they need something in place to keep them safe. They don’t have to do that anymore. They’re allowed to…

play. You stop white-knuckling recovery. Recovery becomes something you want to do, not something you’re forcing yourself through. Because you’re building a life that’s actually worth living, not just escaping the eating disorder. Because then what? Then what’s left? You don’t have the eating disorder anymore. Empty life. No pleasure. No creation. No fun. May as well be distracted by the eating disorder because at least it kind of

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distracts you from the nothingness, right? That’s so key. Build, create, go after the life you want now in the body you have now in eating disorder recovery. Show yourself as more to life than eating, than recovery, than food, there is. You learn that you deserve to thrive, not just survive. This is the big one. Pleasure teaches you at a nervous system level

that you’re allowed to take up space and feel good and enjoy being alive. And that belief is what ultimately sets you free from the eating disorder. Can you see how important this work is? Part 12 is the hard truth. And here’s what I want you to hear. You cannot recover from an eating disorder whilst continuing to live a life of deprivation. I don’t care how balanced

or abundant, your meal plan is if you’re on a meal plan. I don’t care how much therapy you’re doing. If you’re not experiencing regular embodied pleasure, if you’re still operating from achievement, productivity, self denial, self suppression, not saying no, not putting yourself first, you’re not in true recovery, you’re in quasi recovery. And quasi recovery is fucking exhausting. It’s trying to heal.

whilst keeping one foot in the eating disorder. And yeah, it’s like that one foot on the brake, one foot on the accelerator, it doesn’t work. It’s trying to convince your nervous system you’re safe whilst continuing to punish yourself through deprivation, whether it’s food or otherwise. So pleasure is not a luxury. It’s not something that you add on once you’ve earned it through recovery. Pleasure is the recovery.

It’s how you prove to your body that it’s safe and fun to be alive. It’s how you reconnect with your humanity. It’s how you remember what you’re actually recovering for. Because here’s the question, what’s the fucking point of recovery if your life is still joyless? If you’re still denying yourself pleasure, if you’re still just surviving instead of thriving.

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If you’re still too serious and controlled to ever just play and laugh and be silly, you didn’t survive your eating disorder just to live a beige, pleasureless, serious existence. You survived so that you could live fully, vibrantly, with pleasure and joy and aliveness and playfulness. Go give yourself permission, permission to rest without earning it.

Permission to enjoy food without ever compensating. Permission to take up space and feel good in your body. Permission to prioritise pleasure without guilt. Permission to play and be silly without justification. Permission to let your inner children finally have fun. Permission to thrive and not just survive. Permission to leave the job that brings you the money but you hate it. Permission that you don’t need.

permission that only you can actually give yourself. All right, queens, here’s your homework. This week, I want you to do two things every single day. Number one, one pleasurable activity, something embodied, something sensory that makes your body feel good. I wanna say even if it’s just small, even if it’s just 10 minutes, yes, but do more for yourself than just that.

One pleasurable activity every day, non-negotiable. Number two, one playful activity every day. Something fun, something silly, something pointless, something your inner child would love, something that makes you laugh or smile or feel light. Give it a go. Not self-care, that’s just really another to-do list item. Not something productive, disguised as pleasure.

genuine embodied, this feels fucking good pleasure and genuine carefree, this is just, and genuine carefree playfulness. This is just fun for the sake of it being fun. That type of vibe. And well, when the guilt comes, when the unworthiness comes up, when the eating disorder tells you you don’t deserve it, when the voice says this is childish, this is stupid, you should be doing something more important. You know what you’re going to do?

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Don’t do it anyway, allow yourself to enjoy it because recovery is not just about stopping harmful behaviours. It’s about building a life so full of pleasure and aliveness and joy and playfulness that the eating disorder becomes irrelevant. You deserve pleasure, not because you’ve earned it, not because you’ve achieved enough or your body looks a certain way. You know why you deserve it? Because you’re alive.

And being alive in a body is meant to feel good. It’s meant to be fun sometimes. It’s meant to include laughter and silliness and moments when you forget to be serious. I mean, me and Julia Trehean, our inner children love each other so much. We have such a fun, childish time whenever we’re together. Like, that’s one of the reasons that we’ve stayed so connected because we just have so much fun and silliness together. It’s just natural.

Your inner children have been waiting long enough. They deserve to play. They deserve to have fun. They deserve to experience pleasure. And so do you, this adult you. So feel good. I want you to prioritize pleasure. Go laugh. Go be silly. Be a pleasure seeker. That’s what I want you to do. Go and be a pleasure seeker. And let me know.

how life changing it is. Because like I said, recovery for the sake of recovery, recovery is hard enough anyway. Create a life that’s actually worth living. If you don’t know what that looks like, make it up, get inspiration. You do know what that’s like. You have children within you, parts within you that want to show you what that life looks like for you. So do that, go forth, be pleasure seekers. I love you. Rate my podcast.

thumbs up on YouTube and all that jazz. Join my group coaching, honestly, 295 for like all that access for a year is insane. All right, love you, bye. See you next week.